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TOPIC: My first post, have a question.

My first post, have a question. 21 Mar 2009 18:50 #1

  • westtxshoer
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This is my first post here on this forum. I have been reading many threads for quite a while. I have learned quite a bit from just reading your various posts and I thank you for that.

I have a question for those of you more experienced than myself. I got a call today from a new customer who has a 14 year QH mare that supposedly foundered some 7-8 years ago. The horse has had a keg shoe and a plastic pad on since that time. Of course, they are having problems with thrush and am told that the horse is sore often. I don't have pics yet and have asked for rads.

At this point, I am thinking that this horse needs a heart bar with a rolled toe. Evidently, the frog hasn't touched the ground in many years. The vet this customer uses simply told him to turn the shoe around backwards.

Please tell me if I am wrong and thanks for your input.
RJ Little
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"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:My first post, have a question. 21 Mar 2009 20:04 #2

  • Mike Ferrara
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I don't think you've given enough informnation to base an opinion on.

The thrush obviously needs to be treated and it would help to know where the horse is sore and why. Pads can be a good thing and you can get all the posterior support you want using various packings.
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RE:My first post, have a question. 21 Mar 2009 21:06 #3

I have found that some times in pads the frog can get awful bad,
IF it is not cleaned real good.

A heart bar could be the answer, but if you feel it needs the pads,
Just get that frog cleaned up real good

And then I use Forshners and cover the entire bottom of the foot,
so that no moisture will get at it,
and pack with oakum so that no solids can get in
then put the pad back on.

That's if, that is the way your goin'.


PS Welcome
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:My first post, have a question. 21 Mar 2009 21:09 #4

westtxshoer wrote:
The vet this customer uses simply told him to turn the shoe around backwards.

Good thing vets don't want to shoe.

Doesn't seem to answer the problem.
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:My first post, have a question. 21 Mar 2009 22:05 #5

  • Mike Ferrara
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Bradley-1stChoice wrote:
Good thing vets don't want to shoe.

Doesn't seem to answer the problem.

It doesn't seem to answer the problem but if that's what the doctor orders...
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RE:My first post, have a question. 21 Mar 2009 23:03 #6

Mike Ferrara wrote:
It doesn't seem to answer the problem but if that's what the doctor orders...

. . . Den dats what da dr gits. show nuf. :rolleyes:
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:My first post, have a question. 22 Mar 2009 00:22 #7

  • Mark_Gough
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westtxshoer wrote:
This is my first post here on this forum. I have been reading many threads for quite a while. I have learned quite a bit from just reading your various posts and I thank you for that.

Welcome aboard West!
I have a question for those of you more experienced than myself. I got a call today from a new customer who has a 14 year QH mare that supposedly foundered some 7-8 years ago. The horse has had a keg shoe and a plastic pad on since that time. Of course, they are having problems with thrush and am told that the horse is sore often. I don't have pics yet and have asked for rads.

That's a long time to leave a shoe and pad on a horse. After 8 years she's probably due for a reset. :eek: :D
At this point, I am thinking that this horse needs a heart bar with a rolled toe. Evidently, the frog hasn't touched the ground in many years. The vet this customer uses simply told him to turn the shoe around backwards.

Bradley's comments were appropriate. I've had good luck packing with magic cushion, but hey, if the vet says turn the shoe around... well, heck, what can we do? Caudal support of secondary support structures is just optional junk anyway, and turning a shoe around is a 'sure fire cure for thrush'. Everyone knows that, right? :rolleyes:
Please tell me if I am wrong and thanks for your input.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Can't argue with a vet in front of a customer and sometimes you don't want to do it in private either. Makes getting those customer referrals tough.

Ah me, welcome again West and hang in there.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:My first post, have a question. 22 Mar 2009 00:27 #8

  • Gary Hill
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A call to the Vet with your concerns can go along way with some Vets. Its all how you say it to them. Some will agree and go with your advice and others, well at least you made your point so that when things go to heck, you have covered your hinney.
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:My first post, have a question. 22 Mar 2009 01:16 #9

  • calshoer
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It is best to never decide or even speculate what a foot may need before you have even seen it. Especially with founder.

AFTER you have seen the feet, seen recent Xrays (demand them, if there has not been any in a while) and then if you do not agree with the vet after reviewing the feet in person and the Xrays , DISCUSS your concerns with the veterinarian before you do something different than prescribed. I you can not agree with the vet (whether your turn out to be right or not) and the vet will not work with you on a farrier approach that you are both fine with, bow out of the case. Whether you are right or not, if the vet was against what you did and the horse does not fare well with your job, all the blame will be on you.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:My first post, have a question. 22 Mar 2009 04:03 #10

  • westtxshoer
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I appreciate all of your responses. The vet in question really isn't an issue. They are leaving it up to me.

I do like to think beforehand what the best situation might be. That can change surely, but I like to have an attack plan before I show up. There are two facets to my business. Farrier services and heating and AC service. When I get a service call on an AC, I try to determine what the problem might be before I get to the job. That way, I can be assured that I have what I might need. I feel the same way with horseshoeing.

I haven't taken any new customers in about three years and this customer manages a full barn in a great area. I simply want to make certain that I am as prepared as I can be.
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:My first post, have a question. 22 Mar 2009 05:21 #11

  • Rick Talbert
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Seems like maybe I have a slightly different opinion on this. The vet is not paying my salary. If I don't agree with a so-called "prescription", I'll explain to the owner why I don't agree, or why I don't think its the best option. I'm not a pharmacist, and I don't see how it is in my job description to fill anyone's prescriptions. If the owner doesn't agree then I'd tell them they'll have to find someone else. But, I cannot remember a time where I had to say that to an owner. If i do agree then I'll do it, I'm not quite arrogant enough to think I'm the only one capable of coming up with a good idea. If it is not quite the right thing, but not really worth getting into a big deal over (kinda in that gray area), I'll just smile, say okay, do it, and then after the job is done I'll explain to the owner what to expect from the way the horse is shod, ussually we'll end up doing something different next time around, and I don't have to deal with that owner giving me any more "prescriptions" in the future. For all the preaching about vet/ farrier relations from all organizations, this "prescription" business is IMO a blatant show of disrespect to the farrier. Communication directly from the vet to the farrier is often avoided for some reason. The best results ussually come from a vet who knows enough to pick up the phone and say, here is what I've found, what is your opinion on how we should shoe the horse given these results. I will make slight compromises or do things a little differently and not make mountains out of mole hills, but when it boils down to it, I will not do anything I disagree with, and really I hate to sound like a pompous individual, but I'm gonna shoe it how I want to shoe it. I sleep well at night, and I don't want to keep any clients who aren't behind me 100%. If a vet has a good reputation amongst farriers then I will go out of my way to be open and inviting input, But, if I know the vet, and know these gestures are typically not reciprocated, then his or her prescription is gonna be used to light the forge. (Boy, I think my wife was right, I am actin a little grumpy today)
Rick Talbert
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RE:My first post, have a question. 22 Mar 2009 14:30 #12

  • Gary_Miller
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Rick, you have the wrong attitude toward a Vet prescription. Vets write a prescription in order for us to know what it is that he feels needs done for the horse. It easier and better to write something down for the customer to give to their farrier than to call the farrier. The vet does not have time to call every farrier and explain the problem and discuss what needs done. I don't think the vets want to tell you how to shoe the horse they just want the shoeing to do certain things so they sometimes suggest a package that they have seen work before. That is why they write a prescription. If you have a problem with the prescription you have the responsibility as a professional to call the vet and talk to him explain your concerns, suggest your solutions and come up together with a solution that will work.

Its attitudes like yours that cause vets to not treat farriers as professionals. If you want to be treated like a professional then you have to act like one.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:My first post, have a question. 22 Mar 2009 15:58 #13

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary_Miller wrote:
Rick, you have the wrong attitude toward a Vet prescription. Vets write a prescription in order for us to know what it is that he feels needs done for the horse. It easier and better to write something down for the customer to give to their farrier than to call the farrier. The vet does not have time to call every farrier and explain the problem and discuss what needs done. I don't think the vets want to tell you how to shoe the horse they just want the shoeing to do certain things so they sometimes suggest a package that they have seen work before. That is why they write a prescription. If you have a problem with the prescription you have the responsibility as a professional to call the vet and talk to him explain your concerns, suggest your solutions and come up together with a solution that will work.

Its attitudes like yours that cause vets to not treat farriers as professionals. If you want to be treated like a professional then you have to act like one.

I know it all depends on who the vets are but where I sit, there is a real lack of protocol/process/teamwork between vets and farriers. What I usually get is a client telling me that the vet said to do 'X' with no explanation or oportunity to ask questions or make suggestions. For example, I'm often "told" to leave all the heel and nail a backwards shoe on laminitis cases. I ask "what about heel/bone support and derotation" and I'm told that the vet says the horse doesn't need it.

I could call the clinic and I have but it's a waste of time because it doesn't result in any meaningful dialog. It's as though the vet is to concerned about liability to say anything. Even when I have the horse sent to the clinic for diagnosis, treatment and shoeing, I can't get an explanation of what they found, did, why or any useful advice on maintenence. For another example, a client asked me to call the clinic to talk to them about a mare and the shoeing the clinic did prior to me taking the account. The vet told me that the mare has all kinds of issues (I suppose that's a new technical term that I'm not educated enough to be familiar with) and that she didn't remember anything about the shoeing. LOL, no help there.

At this point, I prefer to shoe the sound working horses and let the lameness cases go to the clinic and just be left out of it. It's just not worth my effort or risk.

To be completely honest, I can't help but think that the reason for all this is that most of these vets are just clueless and pulling stuff out of their behinds. Why would they want to discuss it?

My favoprite example is what happened with my wifes old mare. It's part of what got me back into farriery. The horse came up sore. I told my wife I thought she was laminitic/foundering, call the vet. The vet came out, said the mare was foundering and should be shod. No rads, no blood work and NO recommendations for shoeing. I had been away from shoeing for a long time and let my wife go with what the vet said. The mare was dead a couple months later and it wasn't pretty!

If you need a vet for more than routine stuff like worming, vaccinations, floating or maybe some stitches you had better know enough to be able to tell them what to do or have a table handy to bend over and a large supply of vasaline!...and a place to burry the horse.
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RE:My first post, have a question. 23 Mar 2009 03:17 #14

  • Gary Hill
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Our local vets all prescripe pretty much the same thing for every problem, eggbars with wedges!:eek::rolleyes:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:My first post, have a question. 25 Mar 2009 05:56 #15

  • Rick Talbert
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Gary_Miller wrote:
Rick, you have the wrong attitude toward a Vet prescription. Vets write a prescription in order for us to know what it is that he feels needs done for the horse. It easier and better to write something down for the customer to give to their farrier than to call the farrier. The vet does not have time to call every farrier and explain the problem and discuss what needs done. I don't think the vets want to tell you how to shoe the horse they just want the shoeing to do certain things so they sometimes suggest a package that they have seen work before. That is why they write a prescription. If you have a problem with the prescription you have the responsibility as a professional to call the vet and talk to him explain your concerns, suggest your solutions and come up together with a solution that will work.

Its attitudes like yours that cause vets to not treat farriers as professionals. If you want to be treated like a professional then you have to act like one.

If the vet does not "have" the time to call the farrier then why do you assume the farrier should "have" the time, or make the time to call the vet? This assumption to me is disrespectful. Your opinion is that this is our "responsibility as a professional" but not the vet's responsibility, because they are "too busy"? If we have the "attitude" (as you say), (or 'opinion' as I would describe it) that this is NOt our professional responsibilty or obligation, then we are "not acting like a professional" and thereby you suggest that we are the problem that justifies acts of disrespect? According to you, "the vet does not have the time to call the farrier and explain what the problem is" ??? huh??? If the farrier is gonna be the one fixing the problem, a two minute call to explain what they think the problem is that needs to be fixed would seem like the thing to do, especially out of respect for the amount of money the owner is spending for their opinion. Is a vet's life more hectic than a farriers in your opinion? Not from my experience. Some of the nicest equine facilities I've spent time in and around were a lot slower than one would think. Lets also not loose sight of who is making a request from who, by making a "suggestion" in the first place. Seems to me like the burden of professional courtesy should fall initially to the vet if the vet is the one who would like the farrier to do something specificly to fulfill his or her desires.
You said the point of a prescription is "to let us know what it is he feels needs to be done" and that they are simply "suggesting a package" and "not wanting to tell us how to shoe the horse". Well if that is true then I am relieved and validated, because I know exactly what part of my brain I file "suggestions" in, and I have a pile of them sittin in there rotting away. lol. But I do not see how it is my "responsibility as a professional" to call the vet to discuss a shoeing "suggestion" (or "prescription"), when the vet is like you said, too busy for the time it takes to make a phone call to explain anything. I'd hate to interrupt the business.
But really we agree, you view a "prescription" as a suggestion, so do I (more of an opinion really). If it makes sense like I said before, I have no problem doing it. If it is a suggestion that I disagree with, it will be not be done that way. The difference in opinion we have, is that you would at that point take the time to call the vet and explain to them why their "suggestion" is harmful, and attempt to educate them and persuade them to your way of thinking, because that is what you feel is your professional responsibility. I however, do not think professionally I am under any jurisdiction and feel no need to educate or persuade a third party about what I am planning to do to address a problem that falls under my small little umbrella of expertise. In reality when opinions are obviously polar opposite, we are not going to change someone's beliefs in any short amount of time. Or when someone is dealing with a complex issue and does not have a grasp on the very basics we are not going to solve that problem either over the phone. IMO, my "professional" allegiance is to the well being of the horse first, my own personal standards second, the owners desires third, and there is no fourth.
I have no problem working with a vet that wants to work together on an issue when there is a mutual respect. But I think when it comes to hoof related problems a good farrier is the essential professional, the vet cannot treat a mechanical problem with drugs for instance, and be successful. On the other hand the vet is not essential when it comes to hoof related problems. Many of us have worked on thousands of horses that were foundered, navicular, hoof cracks, WLD, contracted heels, YOU NAME IT, with no rads, and no veterinary input and been fairly successful (many owners cannot afford a veterinary opinion). After all that is what we do for a living. So, given that, I loose no sleep at night desiring the "respect" of any vet because their participation in the problems I face daily is inconsequential. It is the vets who should be overflowing with professional courtesy to the farriers who solve the problems they cannot. Attitudes are on both sides of the fence for sure, and maybe I'm more independently minded than some, but who needs who? The one doin the needing might need to be the one making a little more effort to communicate cordially and respectfully. Any disrespect I complain about is that which I perceive towards our profession not personally, because it rolls off my back like water on a duck. If you think my attitude is the problem then I will take that as a "suggestion" and file it with the others. :)
I just have to share a veterinary suggestion I dealt with not too long ago. History- been shoeing this badly foundered horse a few times for a new client. Vet was out to look at something else and was asked to look at this horse. Her suggestion- we should take the shoes off the horse and the owners need to WALK IT BAREFOOT OVER GRAVEL DAILY to toughen the soles, promote circulation, and wear the toe to a natural roll. (At this point in time the horse was still very sore) Next time I was out the owners asked me if I thought we might need to do what the vet said. After about a 10 second poker face silent stare, we both laughed and shod the horse with heart bars. Since then the horse by the way has improved to galloping in the pastures sound. I didn't feel the need to get on the phone with that vet and debate her "natural" methodology with her, in order to "act like a professional", so I guess my attitude contributed to the problem again, sorry.
Rick Talbert
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