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TOPIC: Big Problem, need input

RE:Big Problem, need input 13 Mar 2009 06:25 #16

  • Rick Burten
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Pat,

This mare is almost through thebottom on the right front. There is a huge prolapsing dome under p3. She is extremely sensitive/sore over that dome and could not/would not handle the support that the bubble gum in your proposal would provide.

I worked on the horse last night(thurday). I elected to bring her heels back/down, added bubble gum from behind the prolapsed sole back to the heels, set a clog on the foot on that plane which was differet(lower) than the toe plane, affixed screws to the sides of the clog from just infront of the COA back to the heels, and used Superfast to glue it to the hoof capsule I also added a band to further hold the back of the shoe in the position I wanted.

I'd like to take a moment to thank my shoeing partner, Russ Vanderlei for working with me to get this job done. Without his invaluable input and assistance, it would have been a much more difficult task to accomplish.

I will be back at the barn next Tuesday to both evaluate where we are with the foot, and to, hopefully, get a clog on the other front foot(left fore).
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:Big Problem, need input 13 Mar 2009 14:55 #17

Did you document the procedure with digital photos? Would love to see them Rick
Shane A. Westman
www.westmanequine.com

You can fix a lot of things, but you just can't fix st upid

i find it interesting that when you get to the very basics, in most situations little has changed.
When you get into specifics we have come a long way.

-...
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 07:46 #18

Rick Burten wrote:
This mare is almost through thebottom on the right front. There is a huge prolapsing dome under p3. She is extremely sensitive/sore over that dome and could not/would not handle the support that the bubble gum in your proposal would provide.


Just a suggestion. This is what I used in a recent case. The sandwich plate stops arc shaped with the bottom of the arc at the tip of the frog. The shoe is forged (in Holland we call it "kettled") allowing extra space for P3 trying to push through the wedge pad is thinned there. You could decide to cut it away as well. If the distorsion of the anterior sole by P3 is big, use a spider plate or two sandwich plates.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 13:15 #19

  • Rick Burten
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Thanks Ron.

The problem I'm facing is that the horse is basically non-weight bearing most of the time on that foot. She stands with just the very tip of the hoof resting on the ground. She will , for a few seconds at a time, start to load the hoof, but comes off of it right away. There is an abscess cooking/draining at the lateral toe quarter.
Here are some links to photos of when I first worked on her ten days ago.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4524.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4527.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4533.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4534.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4540.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4542.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4543.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4547.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4549.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n116/db4l90/Farrier-Right%20front/IMG_4550.jpg
Four days later she was still not loading the back of the hoof so I added a 3/4 inch block to the back/bottom of the clog. She still spends most of the time non-weight bearing, but is beginning to engage the back of the foot.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 14:02 #20

  • Joey Aczon
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Ron, what is a sandwich plate? I saw you reference to it on another thread. Could you explain it please?
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 18:54 #21

Joey Aczon wrote:
Ron, what is a sandwich plate? I saw you reference to it on another thread. Could you explain it please?



Well Joey, its a highly sophisticated type of sheet metal. A rubber layer is sandwiched between two thin aluminum plates. It's sturdy but will give when you use a hammer on it, it's even more or less forgable. This allows you to bump a dent in it e.g. to accomodate a bulging sole on a chronic laminitic horse. In fact there is nothing better for that purpose that I know of.

By the way some manufacturers claim it's designed to be used a siding on buildings, but obviously they can not be right its just too perfect for horse shoers for that to be true. ;)


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 19:57 #22

  • Ray_Knightley
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Well Joey, its a highly sophisticated type of sheet metal. A rubber layer is sandwiched between two thin aluminum plates. It's sturdy but will give when you use a hammer on it, it's even more or less forgable. This allows you to bump a dent in it e.g. to accomodate a bulging sole on a chronic laminitic horse. In fact there is nothing better for that purpose that I know of.

By the way some manufacturers claim it's designed to be used a siding on buildings, but obviously they can not be right its just too perfect for horse shoers for that to be true. ;)


Ronald Aalders

Ron ,what is its common use ? other than shoeing?
I had some stuff from a window maker ,modern alu ,it was in front of my forge in one rig for years and was still going strong after lots of abuse--

Ray knightley.
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 20:23 #23

Hi Rick, I wouldn't want to give the impression that I know what you need to do, so please look at this posting as me thinking aloud here.

First off days non weight bearing is a BIG problem as you know. If an abcess may contribute to the pain drain it as a matter of urgency. Whatever it takes Rick. My preferred method of choice is dremel a hole in the toe. Dremel carries a 3/8" bit that cuts on top as well. They call it the 115 high speed cutter if I'm not mistaken. You can push it on the dorsal hoof wall. It will cut the wall pretty easily but you will find it will not cut the laminea because they're not rigid enough. So no fear, no holes in coffin bones........

In a situation where an abcess may be present in the heel drill there. If had several horses with multiple holes. It looks funny perhaps but does not jeopardize hoof wall integrity too much so give it a go.

Also remember that actual pain from rotation/compression is not too likely anymore. Tissue will be destroyed by now. Necrosis may cause abcesses but the bulk of the pain as such will be gone. That is from the initial rotation. If rotation/sinking continues, as in instable cases, new "spots of pain" will be met along the way. Up until some sort of stability is met. Which may well mean imply irrevocable and unrepairable damage to the foot.

Rethink your shoeing protocol. It looks like it offers the mechanics I for one would like to see in play, but Rick what if we're wrong as far as this particular horse is concerned? The theory behind laminitic shoeing is pretty rock solid, provided we have all the details. In horses we never have. Try something else. Try and find out why this laminitic horse if anything stands on its toe rather than the heel which would make more sense. In laminitis standing on a toe does not necessarily mean a horses needs its heels wedged up.

Its a frustrating job but right now you're all the chance this horse has. It's you, no one else could step in and tell you what to do. There is no such thing. You have a head start that is beyond catching up by anyone. That's what makes you so important here. Only you can try and find a good solution, which could be doing nothing. What ever the outcome its the best that horse could have hoped for.

Good luck.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 20:26 #24

everyhorseisapersontoo wrote:
Ron ,what is its common use ? other than shoeing?
I had some stuff from a window maker ,modern alu ,it was in front of my forge in one rig for years and was still going strong after lots of abuse--

Ray knightley.


Kerckhaert sell it, so does Strohm as far as I know. They call it speedy plates for use in trotter racing.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Big Problem, need input 22 Mar 2009 20:55 #25

  • ray steele
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In the states it is called a Speed pad and is available in a couple different thickness. The pad is a plastic material layerd between two thin sheets of aluminum .

It is very strong and as Ron said it can be bellied or bowled, cut with a bandsaw or nippers and I have driven as small as 4.5 xtra race nail thru it without drilling pilot holes.

I've used it on both sides of a shoe , ie as a bolt on hospital plate and between the shoe and the hoof as a pad.

most commonoly I use the 1/8 "Speed pad.

Regards

the other ray

Ray Steele
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RE:Big Problem, need input 23 Mar 2009 14:40 #26

  • Rick Burten
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Hi Rick, I wouldn't want to give the impression that I know what you need to do, so please look at this posting as me thinking aloud here.
You haven't left that impression in the least and I appreciate your thinking aloud.
First off days non weight bearing is a BIG problem as you know. If an abcess may contribute to the pain drain it as a matter of urgency. Whatever it takes Rick.
The abscess is draining as we we speak. Whether it is going to be enough or not remains to be seen. I'm concerned that the purulence is as black as it is and I'm hoping that it does not indicate bone necrosis. On the positive side, the owner e-mailed me this morning with the news that the horse is now more heel loading than it was.
My preferred method of choice is dremel a hole in the toe. Dremel carries a 3/8" bit that cuts on top as well. They call it the 115 high speed cutter if I'm not mistaken. You can push it on the dorsal hoof wall. It will cut the wall pretty easily but you will find it will not cut the laminea because they're not rigid enough. So no fear, no holes in coffin bones........
Good to know. Thanks.
Also remember that actual pain from rotation/compression is not too likely anymore. Tissue will be destroyed by now. Necrosis may cause abcesses but the bulk of the pain as such will be gone. That is from the initial rotation. If rotation/sinking continues, as in instable cases, new "spots of pain" will be met along the way. Up until some sort of stability is met. Which may well mean imply irrevocable and unrepairable damage to the foot.
The foot has appeared to be stable for the last few weeks. Regardless of that, the horse remained non-weight bearing and sensitive/reactive all the way around the foot and to a lesser degree, across the frog. Slowly, this pain has begun to diminish.
Rethink your shoeing protocol. It looks like it offers the mechanics I for one would like to see in play, but Rick what if we're wrong as far as this particular horse is concerned? The theory behind laminitic shoeing is pretty rock solid, provided we have all the details. In horses we never have. Try something else.
I agree. Were the horse not showing signs of improvement, I'd be planning my next move. She has had several different approaches tried by others, all of which probably exacerbated rather than remediated the issue(s).
Try and find out why this laminitic horse if anything stands on its toe rather than the heel which would make more sense.
I agree.
In laminitis standing on a toe does not necessarily mean a horses needs its heels wedged up.
Adding the block to the back of the heels was done to see if she would find it easier to load the heel, at least to some degree. It appears to be helping and because the block is only held in place with two screws, it will be a simple matter to remove it and replace it with a smaller block/heel elevation, or leave it off completely.
Only you can try and find a good solution, which could be doing nothing. What ever the outcome its the best that horse could have hoped for.
Appreciate that.
Good luck.
Thanks, Ron.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Big Problem, need input 23 Mar 2009 16:29 #27

  • calshoer
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Rick , given that the abscess is purulent, is the vet (and owner) willing or able to do more radiographs to assess the health of P3 and maybe also do a distal limb antibiotic perfusion?
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Big Problem, need input 23 Mar 2009 16:46 #28

  • Rick Burten
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calshoer wrote:
Rick , given that the abscess is purulent, is the vet (and owner) willing or able to do more radiographs to assess the health of P3 and maybe also do a distal limb antibiotic perfusion?
I don't know. I know they are looking for a veterinarian to do a venogram, so I'll run those ideas by them too. Thanks!
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Big Problem, need input 23 Mar 2009 18:24 #29

Black pus would suggest involvement of the hoofwall rather than the coffin bone. Could be a screw or nail wandering off because of some twisting of the shoe?

Ronald Aalders
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RE:Big Problem, need input 23 Mar 2009 22:21 #30

  • Ray_Knightley
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Kerckhaert sell it, so does Strohm as far as I know. They call it speedy plates for use in trotter racing.


Ronald Aalders

Thanks i missed the answer some how,I will get some sent as soon as i can ..
thanks again!!

Ray .knightley.
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