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TOPIC: Big Problem

RE:Big Problem 05 Jan 2009 13:11 #16

  • Katy Watts
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irishcas wrote:
Katy do find any horses who get laminitic when given Alfalfa?

One untreated Cushing's mare owned by a friend got sore on just a little alfalfa, and I tested it at 8% NSC and my ponies got 2-3 pounds per day because I was feeding 5% protein grass straw. I have heard of certain horses who get sore on as much as a cup of alfalfa pellets, but I think the majority can have a little as long as protein is not excessive. My best guess is that some horses are allergic to it.

I discussed my thoughts here, towards the end:
http://www.safergrass.org/articles/safergrasses.html
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:Big Problem 05 Jan 2009 13:17 #17

  • Katy Watts
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the_unicorn wrote:
Katy is there any way to access the data collected from AU at Dairy one.

I have discussed this with the lab manager. There are at least a couple MS projects in that database, but they have no one there who has the time, and they would have to think through any confidentiality issues. Best bet for AU specific data is to contact KER, as they have been sending most of the AU samples because they have the custom portal paperwork in place.

Katy
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
www.safergrass.org
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RE:Big Problem 05 Jan 2009 13:49 #18

  • Rick Burten
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the_unicorn wrote:
a horse that is exercising strenuously will use more calcium than a horse that is sound.

Huh? I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but it appears that you feel a horse that is exercising strenuously is unsound.:eek::confused::confused:
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Big Problem 15 Jan 2009 10:48 #19

  • the_unicorn
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Rick Burten wrote:
Huh? I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but it appears that you feel a horse that is exercising strenuously is unsound.:eek::confused::confused:

Correct Rick, a horse that is unsound uses more muscle power to stand up than a healthy horse that can use its skeleton efficiently.

A horse in pain must use muscles to bypass the problem area in the hoof or leg. In the case of foundered horses they are constantly standing in unnatural positions. They can only achieve these stances by using muscles to bend joints out of their bio-mechanical neutral position. This muscle power requires energy, this means glycogen, calcium and magnesium as well as many other trace minerals including chromium for calcium uptake. The horse that cannot use its skeleton to rest comfortably uses more food and minerals.

Calcium loss in pedal bones can be mitigated by supplying enough minerals during the first 1-2 weeks of laminitis and founder, until the laminae have rebonded. Then trim the heels as low as necessary to keep the weight bearing on the sole even. The reason for the extra requirements is the load on the horse being asked to exercise 24 hours a day, or until it lays down.

I have new photos fro last week, I also saw the horse yesterday and she is trotting around so the abscessing has settled by using the Dalric cuffs. I got some good photos deep into the holes in the hoof.

We still have the suspensory ligament issues and upright pasterns to deal with. A good race horse trainer has suggested getting the horse to stretch both front legs out in front, as well as the up hill work I already planned.

I tested wedging to +3,+6 and -3 degrees to see the effect. It impacts only the hoof capsule not the leg. The + degree wedging made the horse uncomfortable.

Any help on the suspensory would be appreciated.

Will post photos when I get a chance.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:Big Problem 15 Jan 2009 13:38 #20

  • Rick Burten
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What evidence/research has been done that shows pedal bone calcium loss is a direct result/consequence of the situation you describe? Also, you still haven't answered my question regarding why anyone who suspects potential or actual calcium loss as you hypothesis, simply doesn't add calcium as a supplement. Seems to me that would be an easy, simple and efficient means of dealing with the problem.......
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Big Problem 18 Jan 2009 02:39 #21

  • mwmyersdvm
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Since laminitis is one of the major conditions I work with, I can say a lot more information is needed for a definitive workup on this horse. Admittedly, these procedures are not done on many cases that have a 'successful' outcome, but my take on that is that these are healed more by luck and the horse repairing in spite of the treatment rather than because of it. When you are dealing with laminitis and limb problems in a young horse, this can be a serious issue and it should be handled by the most ooptimal systematic approach possible to expect the best outcome.

For me to fully commment on the case I would need to see:
Current radiographs (Take according to Redden Protocol - www.nanric.com)
Current photographs
Current video in slow movement. Walking toward, away, slow circle, and turn left and right.
Current venogram. This is a definitive diagnostic that gives me a lot of soft tissue information.

Since I have not worked with you before and I cannot be certain that we view cases in the same way, it would be best for me to see the pictures for best information. If you can send the measurements from the radiographs I may be able to assist somewhat:
horn-lamellar zone, sole depth, palmar angle, coronary band-extensor process drop, coffin bone angle, solar cup depth at the toe. To measure directly off the film there should be an object in the field of the hoof of known dimension so you can calculate the measurements precisely.
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