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TOPIC: New book on laminitis and insulin

New book on laminitis and insulin 18 Sep 2008 19:18 #1

  • Katy Watts
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This new booklet will save a lot of lives if all vets and hoofcare providers read it, and show their clients. It’s written by the team of Martin Sillence, Katie Asplin, Chris Pollitt and Catherine McGowan who did the breakthrough studies in AU inducing laminitis with insulin.

What Causes Equine Laminitis?: The Role of Impaired Glucose Uptake.
This new booklet published by Rural Industries Research and Development Corp (Australian government) summarizes the important work implicating high insulin as a cause of laminitis. The illustrations and diagrams will help lay people understand this mechanism, while the overview of the science will add convincing evidence to veterinarians and horse care providers who have not yet had the opportunity to read the full text journal papers. This booklet will help horse owners understand that proper diet and exercise are vital in the prevention and treatment of laminitis.
I will sell these booklets at a discounted rate because I thinks the information is vital, and the shipping is cheaper and faster than ordering from RIRDC. (+$15 and takes a month)

http://www.safergrass.org/cdsales.html

Katy
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 19 Sep 2008 11:44 #2

  • AussieMal
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Very good book made by a top organisation. I like to get all my beady eyed pony owners to read it.:D
Mal Nicholson MF.
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 20 Sep 2008 00:29 #3

I'm sure it's a very good book, but as long as the researchers are only looking at diet and exercise, then there's a huge hole in there research, we have so many horse's in our clientel that never or very seldom see a blade of green grass growing, yet there getting IR/Cushings, it's becoming an epicdenic and more and more horse's are being denied pasture because everyone thinks only diet is the culprit, yet most of the horses we see that are becoming IR/Cushings are getting blasted with vaccines, chemical wormers, antibiotics and pain killer like bute & banimene. Twenty years ago when I got into horse's the protocal was vaccinate once a year and chemical worm twice a year and I hardly ever saw IR/Cushings horses, horse's were much healthier back then. We quit vaccinating competely 13 years ago and also quit chemical worming we also won't give antibiotics, we choose to treat wounds holistically and we've never had an infection since and some pretty nasty wounds, I know were much more radical than most want to be and I'm not telling people to do what we've done, but it certainly works for us, our horse's for the past 8 years have been turned out on 18 acres of lush pasture that use to be cow pasture, there out 24/7, 365 days a year, our oldest was 27, we also have a 22, 21, 9 and two 4 years olds and we've never had a horse with IR/Cushings, so as long as the reserachers aren't looking at vaccine and chemical worming schedules, the amount of drugs and antibiotics these horses are getting there will still be many horse's getting sick and dying from something they don't need to be getting.
Phil Smith CNBF, CLS
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 20 Sep 2008 02:28 #4

horseshoer123 wrote:
I'm sure it's a very good book, but as long as the researchers are only looking at diet and exercise, then there's a huge hole in there research, we have so many horse's in our clientel that never or very seldom see a blade of green grass growing, yet there getting IR/Cushings, it's becoming an epicdenic and more and more horse's are being denied pasture because everyone thinks only diet is the culprit, yet most of the horses we see that are becoming IR/Cushings are getting blasted with vaccines, chemical wormers, antibiotics and pain killer like bute & banimene. Twenty years ago when I got into horse's the protocal was vaccinate once a year and chemical worm twice a year and I hardly ever saw IR/Cushings horses, horse's were much healthier back then. We quit vaccinating competely 13 years ago and also quit chemical worming we also won't give antibiotics, we choose to treat wounds holistically and we've never had an infection since and some pretty nasty wounds, I know were much more radical than most want to be and I'm not telling people to do what we've done, but it certainly works for us, our horse's for the past 8 years have been turned out on 18 acres of lush pasture that use to be cow pasture, there out 24/7, 365 days a year, our oldest was 27, we also have a 22, 21, 9 and two 4 years olds and we've never had a horse with IR/Cushings, so as long as the reserachers aren't looking at vaccine and chemical worming schedules, the amount of drugs and antibiotics these horses are getting there will still be many horse's getting sick and dying from something they don't need to be getting.
phil you may have a point as i don't give mine all the vaccines that most give theres and mine are not sick the vet said thay are in good shape and two of them need to go on a diet but my mustang no matter how much or how little i give her she is still fat but unlike you i don't have pasture to turn them out so all thay get is barn hay most of the year .and thay get wormed once a year.
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 20 Sep 2008 13:52 #5

  • texfarrier
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So are there no studies on vaccines, chemical wormers, antibiotics and pain killer like bute & banimene contributing to laminitis? This is a very good point i think if we were to do studies it would show some interesting findings.I too do not give mine vaccines and only worm about 3 times a year and they are on 13 acers and never had any problems...I think alot of things are just overkill
Austin Russell
"Uva Uvam Vivendo Varia Fit"
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 20 Sep 2008 18:23 #6

  • Katy Watts
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texfarrier wrote:
So are there no studies on vaccines, chemical wormers, antibiotics and pain killer like bute & banimene contributing to laminitis?

Yes. It's called 'FDA Approval' process. Here's a list of the regulations for labeling veterinary drugs.
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/Guidance/published.htm

Then go here: http://dil.vetmed.vt.edu/NADA/

Type in 'laminitis' in the 'all fields' search engine, and you will find the 3 steroid drugs that may cause laminitis as a side effect.
Are you feeding your horse like a cow?
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 20 Sep 2008 22:32 #7

texfarrier wrote:
So are there no studies on vaccines, chemical wormers, antibiotics and pain killer like bute & banimene contributing to laminitis? This is a very good point i think if we were to do studies it would show some interesting findings.I too do not give mine vaccines and only worm about 3 times a year and they are on 13 acers and never had any problems...I think alot of things are just overkill

You'll probably never find a study in this, the drug compaines would never go there, they want to make money. We have one client in paticular who has a IR horse that had been laminitic, was doing fine and then the horse injured itself, was given antibiotics and then became lamintic again, even the vet in that case said don't give this horse antibiotics again and the gal has now stopped vaccinating because the very same thing happened to this horse after a round of vaccines.
Phil Smith CNBF, CLS
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 22 Sep 2008 22:02 #8

  • mwmyersdvm
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I would exercise caution before touting the virtues of an 'all natural' way of life. In nature, the ill or laminitic horse is weeded out by predators and thus fewer and fewer get the life threatening problems. Not a way that many owners want to try for the disease free herd.

Vaccinating should be done judiciously. If you keep horses at home and do not expose them to other horses, not vaccinating them for certain diseaes can be done. Not vaccinating them for tetanus, rabies and the encephalitis diseases is taking a calculated risk. These diseases are uncommon in horses, are essentially 100% preventable with vaccine and generally 100% fatal if contracted. So it is up to the owner to weigh the odds they desire.

I do not use the 'cheapest' vaccine available. I use vaccines with high purity and low adjuvant loads. The adjuvants are the main culprit, not the vaccine entity itself. I do a lot of high level performance horses and if you want to make a bundle of money in veterinary medicine, I have seen the results of large barns deciding to go a non vaccine route. Try treating an outbreak of Strep equi in a 100 horse facility. Treat someone's pet pony for influenza with a 105 degree temperature or have to euthanize a $15,000 two year old for encephalomyelitis and you may have a little different outlook on a correct vaccination protocol. I have found that herd health management is the kindest way to handle owner's horses. Treating diseases as they arise is actually more costly for many owners, the lucky ones get by with no prevention, but the unlucky ones pay huge medical bills. Vaccines were created because a need arose, not just as a means for pharmaceutical companies to make money.

Additionally, pharmaceutical companies are required by the FDA to report adverse events when their products are administered even if those adverse events may not have actually directly caused the adverse reaction. Laminitis caused by corticosteroids can occur, but not as easily as is currently believed. When used properly, corticosteroids can assist in the recovery of a variety of problems as can non steroidal anti-inflammatory medications. On occasion, when I get a chance to thoroughly question an owner on a lamintic flare up I can find diet changes or other management changes that have occurred along with the administration of the medication. I have caught boarding barns with laminitis cases with their boarders feeling sorry for the stalled horse and giving it hay indiscriminately, giving added inappropriate feed, or the horse regularly escaping to graze. I had a well educated owner hand grazing her normally muzzled IR Arabian gelding outside a barn one day as I arived to shoe him. That grass, only 15 minutes of hand grazing, had his insulin over 250uIU/ml (with 25 as the high normal for BET Labs). She will not do that again.

There are far too many variables in the vaccine and medication scene to make generalizations for a purely natural existence. I, for one, have enjoyed many years of very few emergencies in my 30 year old practice with the judicious use of vaccines, dewormers, and just good health management based on risk factors for each horse. I see less than six colics a year and treat less than six cases of respiratory disease in that same time frame.
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 22 Sep 2008 22:25 #9

  • Jack Evers
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In the 80's and 90's when I was breeding Quarter Horses, we used to hold a spring horse breaking clinic with young horses coming into the farm. We always warned participants that without vaccinations they were apt to have a sick horse when it was over. We were right more often than not.

Our own horses were on a good program and never had sickness from the clinic and in a long lifetime of owning horses, I have never had a laminitic horse of my own.

You pays your money and you takes your chances, but my money is on immunization.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 23 Sep 2008 16:44 #10

  • Jack Evers
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I have caught boarding barns with laminitis cases with their boarders feeling sorry for the stalled horse and giving it hay indiscriminately, giving added inappropriate feed, or the horse regularly escaping to graze. I had a well educated owner hand grazing her normally muzzled IR Arabian gelding outside a barn one day as I arived to shoe him. That grass, only 15 minutes of hand grazing, had his insulin over 250uIU/ml (with 25 as the high normal for BET Labs). She will not do that again.

Certainly accurate. A couple of anecdotes - I had a client with a cronic founder mare that I kept cautioning about his mares condition. He finally said "but I only turn her out for a couple of hours in the morning and again in the evening" (plus unlimited hay in the corral). My reply was that if I had two hours twice a day free choice in the donut shop, I could do myself a lot of harm.

Dr Matthew Mckay-Smith at an AERC convention was asked how to introduce a horse to pasture when they had been on dry feed. He said that a horse can fill his belly in about forty five minutes so the idea of an hour today and two hours tomorrow doesn't work. If you leave them on grass for an hour, you may as well just leave them out. Try 15 min, 30 min, 45 min and turnout.

I hadn't thought about it before, but no matter how long I ride a horse and how hungry they seem to be, when I turn them out to graze, they will be lifting their heads and looking around in 30 to 45 minutes. They are a semi continuous grazer and the gut fills quite rapidly.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 03 Jan 2009 12:06 #11

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Jack Evers wrote:
I hadn't thought about it before, but no matter how long I ride a horse and how hungry they seem to be, when I turn them out to graze, they will be lifting their heads and looking around in 30 to 45 minutes. They are a semi continuous grazer and the gut fills quite rapidly.

The biggest problem I find is the laminitic horse that is locked up in a stall or yard is only fed twice a day. This has two problems first a horse that is not out exercising is not burning sugar. Second is that a horse not exercising will decrease muscle mass as it does not need that much muscle to stand still. Muscle is the best storage of dietary sugars in the case of glucose index increases. If there is not enough muscle with space for glycogen then the body has to release Insulin to force the storage of blood glucose.

Get the pony out into a big paddock to run around, if you can't do that feed it a dozen times a day and exercise it as many times as you can. The only reason for most laminitis to continue for more than 1 week is lack of managment.

And stay away from the high NSC grass and white hays.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
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RE:New book on laminitis and insulin 04 Jan 2009 11:25 #12

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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horseshoer123 wrote:
I'm sure it's a very good book, but as long as the researchers are only looking at diet and exercise, then there's a huge hole in there research,
They're not! There's been a mass of research over the years on both sides of the Atlantic. However diet is the biggest causative factor. FACT.

There's a lot of owners with laminitic horses that seek to refute this fact but I've a theory on that. It's to do with a failure to accept responsibility and make it much easier to live with yourself if you think it's "got nothing to do with me"

I think the work Katy is doing is excellent, educational and informative. It's invaluable and it's needed. BUT... and there is a but.... a lot of owners don't want to know! They find it too much effort and difficult to take on board. My experience is that there's a modern trend with diet (human or horse) for many to be in total denial and to do the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears going "la la la - not listening"

Any professional working with horses knows this. Farriers come across owners all the time with laminitic fat little ponies and are told "it only gets a bit of grain to get it's supplements/medication". "It's in a bare paddock" - when truth is there's new grass shoots growing there and more than any pony should ever have!

Then regrettably too many feel they need to use food as is the modern trend with people. So to compensate for lack of something else (time and attention). As a quick fix reward or training aid, motivator (hence unhealthy diets and too many fat kids, propensity for obesity in adults and fat horses!).

Hence in the human race we've an increase in obesity, diabetes etc and in horses a massive increase in laminitis, colic and metabollic disorders.... and all man made! So in domesticity too many horses suffer and die because of bad diet and particularly too much of everything and with great big "meals" and disporportionately too little forage matter.

Truth is that in nature horses are flight and fright roamers and trickle forage feeders. In nature they spend a lot of time and effort looking for meagre forage feed and they do indeed have period of famine when they run off. However not many of us want to keep our horses as they would be in the wild where they die by the age of 8 and often from starvation or cold during hard winter months.

IMO the message needs to be simple and clearly understood. The most important thing is to ensure owners stick to the principles of forage (hay and grass) as the main dietary component.

Ensure diet is controlled so the horse is neither fat nor thin. (Feel ribs but not see them)

Remember that grass and hay - even when it's meagre and low quality, is forage feed of high nutritional value to a horse so also has to be managed and controlled

That you can get a horse VERY fit and in extremely good condition on just hay. On too much hay you can get it grossly obese etc etc

That its a horse and doesn't have a social calandar and expect "meals" of breakfast, dinner and tea. In nature it's not an animal that as a routine has great big "meal" because its that time of the day

That feed should always be proportionate to effort expended (exercise and keeping warm).
we have so many horse's in our clientel that never or very seldom see a blade of green grass growing, yet there getting IR/Cushings,
I'm getting the impression your not understanding the nature of IR and Cushings. (See above)

I'm also getting the impression you're not understanding that an equid kept in a small area and fed big meals (grain, hay whatever) is more likely to get laminitis than one kept in a herd moving about on a low grade forage.
it's becoming an epicdenic and more and more horse's are being denied pasture because everyone thinks only diet is the culprit, yet most of the horses we see that are becoming IR/Cushings are getting blasted with vaccines, chemical wormers, antibiotics and pain killer like bute & banimene.
That's called coincidence!!
Twenty years ago when I got into horse's the protocal was vaccinate once a year and chemical worm twice a year and I hardly ever saw IR/Cushings horses, horse's were much healthier back then.
I don't know where you are but here some vaccinations are annual and tetanus is every 3 years. Worming is every 12 weeks but only according to faecal sampling. There's no reason why that can't be the same there. Except a lot of the USA seems to be in denial about wormer tolereance. The world programme that co-ordinates action couldn't persuade the USA to ban the likes of dailer de-wormers - not licenced or permitted over here!

However having said that, there's absolutely no evidence that they play a part in IR and cushings disease.
We quit vaccinating competely 13 years ago and also quit chemical worming we also won't give antibiotics, we choose to treat wounds holistically and we've never had an infection since and some pretty nasty wounds, I know were much more radical than most want to be and I'm not telling people to do what we've done, but it certainly works for us, our horse's for the past 8 years have been turned out on 18 acres of lush pasture that use to be cow pasture, there out 24/7, 365 days a year, our oldest was 27, we also have a 22, 21, 9 and two 4 years olds and we've never had a horse with IR/Cushings, so as long as the reserachers aren't looking at vaccine and chemical worming schedules, the amount of drugs and antibiotics these horses are getting there will still be many horse's getting sick and dying from something they don't need to be getting.
Personally speaking I think it's utterly and totally irresponsible not to vaccinate a horse for tetanus and not to have it on an effective worming programme. But then I'm old enough to have seen the consquences of horses dying worm riddled and with tetanus. And sadly it wasn't that many years ago when a "fruitbat, hippy" owner who I'd had similar conversation with called me to come to urgently see her horse as it was severely ill. It had tetanus and because the owner was too upset to see to it, she left me to hold it whilst it was put down and then to get it taken off to be buried.

You're also very mistaken or misled if you genuinely think there hasn't been much research on vaccination and wormers and for contraindications and efficacy. There's a mass of data.

It also should be appreciated that in the UK we talk about "cushings syndrome" and "cushings disease". Syndrome is where there's symptoms only and Disease is where the pituity gland is enlarged and has a tumour on it - either benign or malignant and it affects the control and production of natural steroids by the adrenal gland. The disease results in increased levels of cortisol, the body's natural steroid, which is to blame for most of the problems associated with the disease.

Cushings syndrome in horses (and people) is a disease of maturity and old age and horses (and people) live longer and so of course more will be seen.
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