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Question 13 Sep 2010 08:08 #1

  • uknow1311
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hello to you all,
i was ascked resently a question from another farrier,what can i do to get the front feet to break over faster.
my answer were shortening breack over point , and apply a set or rolled toe.

Now he ascked me what about the heels can you do anything wf them.

just mentioned you could have a just fit so the hind wont catch.

what about raising the heel he says.

i told him the palmar tenton wont be has tense and would take longuer to pull on p3 to rotate.

now he explained that if the horse put heels, flat, toe to foward by raising the heels it will just flat then roll.

so yes i do understand that and we left it there.

but on me way home it worked in me head, now how would you trim that hoof? would p3 need to be parralel to the ground? so do you need an x ray,and i would presume the tendon would thrink after a while of that shoing,

so i was wondering if anybody has used that tecnique and his there any feed back
Van raepenbusch Paddy

One thing at a time.
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RE:Question 13 Sep 2010 10:58 #2

The foot breaks over when the tension on the check ligament rises enough to "pop" the leg off the ground. lowering the heels increases tension and speeds breakover. Raising the heels retards the moment of breakover. This is counter-intuitive.

Ground parallel is too far. A normal palamar/plantar angle for P-3 is about 2-4 degrees or so. if you leave about 1/8" or so above the sole plane at the heel you will hit that angle. Getting parallel requires rasping the heel to the sole plane itself which I was taught is too far except for certain theraputic applications.
George Spear
CNBBT, CNBF, CLS


".....and I said to the horse: Trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal."
Don Vincenzo Giobbe
CA. 1700

"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:Question 13 Sep 2010 15:53 #3

What is the function on the front end of the horse?

Why does any hoof need to Breadover Faster?


Why don't we all just trim and find a healthy hoof, address flair and distortion.
Apply a shoe that will allow the horse to reach out and do what it needs to get the job of steering and locomotion
done.

Should evey hoof look the same? Should any hoof have an orthortic that is not easy on the horses limb and applies
tourqe IE square none flowing shoes and shape.

Should every front foot look identical? IMO no some may have a more pointy shape
(per and pastern and limb above) some more round.
With that said the shoe should still have a rounder apperance than the hind per the bone inside.


George What Check are you trying to say lifts the leg off the ground?

Whouldn't it be safe to say that the DFT origanating at/as the deep flexor muscle traveling down the back of the limb
Supported at the knee by the ICL, moving on down the limb over the navicular area then supported again by the DCL inserting at the bottom of the coffin
bone would play role in lifting the limb and hoof.
Jarred Oates
Oates Equine Service's
Farrier-Massage-Aromathearpy-Training

Hocking College Equine Science
(farrier, equine health, and wilderness horsemanship)
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RE:Question 14 Sep 2010 07:14 #4

  • uknow1311
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thanks goerge,
that is what i wanted to explain to the guy, but hi dint seem to convicet.
and were not tring to change anything, rolling the toe is a natural wair were just copyng it on the shoe, so that it moves fluider .
Van raepenbusch Paddy

One thing at a time.
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RE:Question 14 Sep 2010 11:12 #5

Dances with Hooves wrote:
The foot breaks over when the tension on the check ligament rises enough to "pop" the leg off the ground. lowering the heels increases tension and speeds breakover. Raising the heels retards the moment of breakover. This is counter-intuitive.


George, where did you get this information, please?

regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Question 15 Sep 2010 00:42 #6

Western Hill Forge wrote:
George, where did you get this information, please?

regards

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/articles/handouts/howformrelates2function.html
George Spear
CNBBT, CNBF, CLS


".....and I said to the horse: Trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal."
Don Vincenzo Giobbe
CA. 1700

"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:Question 17 Sep 2010 11:14 #7

Dances with Hooves wrote:
Nice article, very detailed, well written and descriptive. However it left out what I consider a few very important variables. Environment, nutrition, training and conditioning, moisture, breed, footing the horse works on. In my humble opinion I would have to give Gene's article a C -.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Question 18 Sep 2010 14:33 #8

  • Rick Burten
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Dances with Hooves wrote:
The foot breaks over when the tension on the check ligament rises enough to "pop" the leg off the ground.
If this is true, how do we account for the breakover on those horses that have had an inferior check ligament desmotomy or, those horses who spontaneously rupture/tear the check ligament and continue, after healing, to be able to breakover correctly?
lowering the heels increases tension and speeds breakover. Raising the heels retards the moment of breakover.
Always? Are there other factors that when present may affect breakover speed?
Ground parallel is too far.
Always?
A normal palamar/plantar angle for P-3 is about 2-4 degrees or so. if you leave about 1/8" or so above the sole plane at the heel you will hit that angle.
Every time? Or is is also dependent on othere factors too?
Getting parallel requires rasping the heel to the sole plane itself which I was taught is too far except for certain theraputic applications.
Does that not also depend on the existant heel location?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Question 19 Sep 2010 06:05 #9

  • Bill Adams
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oatey_hocking wrote:
What is the function on the front end of the horse?
Why does any hoof need to Breadover Faster?
Why don't we all just trim and find a healthy hoof, address flair and distortion.
Apply a shoe that will allow the horse to reach out and do what it needs to get the job of steering and locomotion
done.

The main function of the front end (and I've stolen this) is to keep the horse's nose out of the dirt.
Initially, a faster breakover allows the front feet to vacate sonner, the spot where the hind feet are about to land.
The resistance of a slower break, keeps the foot flat on the ground further under the horse, increasing the phangeal lever, which increases tension on the suspensory system, navicular system, dorsal lamina, etc.
The front end isn't used for locomotion (to pull the horse forward) other than the first few strides from a starting gate, getting after a calf or leaving a barrel, etc. In these few strides, a faster breakover would allow a quicker grab for the next pull.
As to steering, a faster breakover, provided as you mentioned, by addressing flair, then applying a rim, concave, or half round type shoes, allows less resistance m/l, making them steer like a sports car.

uknow1311 wrote:
rolling the toe is a natural wair were just copyng it on the shoe, so that it moves fluider .

Van,
Welcome.
I have thought that the wear on the toe of the shoe is an indication of the resistance of the foot to a retarded breakover and that the force required to wear off the steel shoe is being exerted further up the leg.
When I shoe a horse to ease breakover, I will set the shoe back, broadening and rolling the toe.
I find that I have the horse dialed in when I find the shoe wear completely even around the whole shoe. The toe is not worn any more than the heels, other than a small bit of the lateral toe, and I'm getting better at that lately.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Question 19 Sep 2010 13:00 #10

  • Jack Evers
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Van,
Welcome.
I have thought that the wear on the toe of the shoe is an indication of the resistance of the foot to a retarded breakover and that the force required to wear off the steel shoe is being exerted further up the leg.
When I shoe a horse to ease breakover, I will set the shoe back, broadening and rolling the toe.
I find that I have the horse dialed in when I find the shoe wear completely even around the whole shoe. The toe is not worn any more than the heels, other than a small bit of the lateral toe, and I'm getting better at that lately.
_________________

Pretty much my thoughts, Bill although I'm more prone to rocker toes. I do make some exceptions for horses that are on 14 week cycles and think excessive toe wear may have something to do with cycle length and hoof growth.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Question 21 Sep 2010 20:49 #11

  • vthorseshoe
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Jarred,
if you go to a shoe store to buy a pair of shoe's for yourself ask the attendent if every one has identical feet.
The answer will in almost every case "NO"

Horses are no different. most will have one hoof larger than the other-some will have high/low syndrom (one hoof upright or even clubby and the other will be, in many cases low heel and long toe. ( the horse is out of balanced in one manner or another while copeing with its physical disorder.

EACH HOOF NEEDS TO BE TRIMMED AS AN INDIVIDUAL, "BUT" at the same time trim and shoe so the animal can move in a co-ordinated manner.
Athletic/balanced etc.
In other words Your trimming the whole horse while trimming each individual hoof.

Example;
A horse has leg length disparity.
You can add pads to raise the short leg.
You can make one shoe thicker to raise the short leg.
You can trim one foot shorter and leave more growth on the other to raise the short leg.

For the farrier who said he sets the shoe back to increase break over.
I have an opinion on that.

If the horse, any horse, was meant to have the toe sit higher than the rest of the foot it would have been born that way.

Also we are taught to safe the toe to relieve sole pressure yet you then place the set back shoe over the place you safed the shoe to protect.

A simple senerio is one farrier saw another farrier do it on a horse and it took off like wild fire and it is unbelievable how many new/old/inexperience/experienced farriers set the shoe back to increase break over.

Monkey see monkey do syndrom.
I don't mean that to be offensive, but am saying many farriers learn from watching others and that becomes enough justification to continue something.

With so many ways to ease break-over why would anyone want to set the shoe back away from the toe. (kinda like floating the toe)
Yet truth be known, I have seen an AFA Farriers Team member do this on a horse used to demonstrate at a clinic.

When a foot wears bare foot it rolls the toe at what ever angle break-over takes place.
NO where do you see a bare foot with a set back hoof wall. :rolleyes:

George; I also see too many folks using to much angulation to correct problems.
What I see is; "if a little is good then a lot must be better"
There was a great example on this board just recently.

I know I am hanging my head out to be shot at, But !!!
1. we have way too many shoe hangers instead of qualified farriers.
2. It is time for a lot of folks to stop and examine all the ramifications of their actions before proceeding.

How many folks are STILL shoeing long toe/Low heel..... I can tell you first hand I see it on a regular basis.

Clinics and continued education. Not following one person's teaching but listen to many and then choose what has proven to not only work mechanically but actually be benificial for the particular horse.

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Question 21 Sep 2010 22:21 #12

vthorseshoe wrote:
Jarred,
if you go to a shoe store to buy a pair of shoe's for yourself ask the attendent if every one has identical feet.
The answer will in almost every case "NO"

Horses are no different. most will have one hoof larger than the other-some will have high/low syndrom (one hoof upright or even clubby and the other will be, in many cases low heel and long toe. ( the horse is out of balanced in one manner or another while copeing with its physical disorder.

EACH HOOF NEEDS TO BE TRIMMED AS AN INDIVIDUAL, "BUT" at the same time trim and shoe so the animal can move in a co-ordinated manner.
Athletic/balanced etc.
In other words Your trimming the whole horse while trimming each individual hoof.

Example;
A horse has leg length disparity.
You can add pads to raise the short leg.
You can make one shoe thicker to raise the short leg.
You can trim one foot shorter and leave more growth on the other to raise the short leg.

For the farrier who said he sets the shoe back to increase break over.
I have an opinion on that.

If the horse, any horse, was meant to have the toe sit higher than the rest of the foot it would have been born that way.

Also we are taught to safe the toe to relieve sole pressure yet you then place the set back shoe over the place you safed the shoe to protect.

A simple senerio is one farrier saw another farrier do it on a horse and it took off like wild fire and it is unbelievable how many new/old/inexperience/experienced farriers set the shoe back to increase break over.

Monkey see monkey do syndrom.
I don't mean that to be offensive, but am saying many farriers learn from watching others and that becomes enough justification to continue something.

With so many ways to ease break-over why would anyone want to set the shoe back away from the toe. (kinda like floating the toe)
Yet truth be known, I have seen an AFA Farriers Team member do this on a horse used to demonstrate at a clinic.

When a foot wears bare foot it rolls the toe at what ever angle break-over takes place.
NO where do you see a bare foot with a set back hoof wall. :rolleyes:

George; I also see too many folks using to much angulation to correct problems.
What I see is; "if a little is good then a lot must be better"
There was a great example on this board just recently.

I know I am hanging my head out to be shot at, But !!!
1. we have way too many shoe hangers instead of qualified farriers.
2. It is time for a lot of folks to stop and examine all the ramifications of their actions before proceeding.

How many folks are STILL shoeing long toe/Low heel..... I can tell you first hand I see it on a regular basis.

Clinics and continued education. Not following one person's teaching but listen to many and then choose what has proven to not only work mechanically but actually be benificial for the particular horse.

my 2 cents worth ;)

Bruce,

I have always enjoyed your posts, but this is probably my favorite so far! Stay well, my friend.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Question 22 Sep 2010 07:35 #13

  • chris bunting
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going back to the original post , it is not possible to make the front feet breakover faster , you can only make them breakover earlier
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:Question 07 Mar 2011 08:19 #14

  • uknow1311
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Bill Adams wrote:
The main function of the front end (and I've stolen this) is to keep the horse's nose out of the dirt.
Initially, a faster breakover allows the front feet to vacate sonner, the spot where the hind feet are about to land.
The resistance of a slower break, keeps the foot flat on the ground further under the horse, increasing the phangeal lever, which increases tension on the suspensory system, navicular system, dorsal lamina, etc.
The front end isn't used for locomotion (to pull the horse forward) other than the first few strides from a starting gate, getting after a calf or leaving a barrel, etc. In these few strides, a faster breakover would allow a quicker grab for the next pull.
As to steering, a faster breakover, provided as you mentioned, by addressing flair, then applying a rim, concave, or half round type shoes, allows less resistance m/l, making them steer like a sports car.



Van,
Welcome.
I have thought that the wear on the toe of the shoe is an indication of the resistance of the foot to a retarded breakover and that the force required to wear off the steel shoe is being exerted further up the leg.
When I shoe a horse to ease breakover, I will set the shoe back, broadening and rolling the toe.
I find that I have the horse dialed in when I find the shoe wear completely even around the whole shoe. The toe is not worn any more than the heels, other than a small bit of the lateral toe, and I'm getting better at that lately.

englich isnt my first language so if ofen have difficulty expressing myself, but i agree totaly wf your last quote each worn shoe will give you the pattern for the next, have you seen the Mustang equilibrium shoe? thanks to everyubody for there response
Van raepenbusch Paddy

One thing at a time.
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RE:Question 07 Mar 2011 16:38 #15

  • ray tyron
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Phil and Bruce your posts make entirely too much since. Thanks.
Nothing forced or misunderstood can ever be beautiful.
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