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TOPIC: Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation

Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 03:38 #1

  • Anthony_Lawrence
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I've been involved in a local discussion with the BUAs whereupon a reference was made to a study by Bowker purporting to show that peripheral loading (i.e. tacking on a shoe) compromises circulation in the hoof. I've googled it but can't find it anywhere.

1/ Does anyone have a link to the study.

2/ Anyone familiar with it, is it kosher or biased nonsense? And is there any scientific refutation of it?

Thanks
Ant.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 04:18 #2

  • Alicia Thompson
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So obviously they had never read the "study" either or they could have told you.

It makes no logical sense that peripheral loading could impact circulation. Setting a shoe back to far and not ensuring sole clearance could impact circulation via impingement of the circumflex artery but I believe the sole would have to be thin for this to happen and by definition if you are "loading the sole" you are not peripheral loading.

When I have heard BUA talk about this circulation nonsense it is supposedly because the shoe doesn't allow the hoof to flex and act as a pump. Since the front half of the hoof doesn't expand and that is where the nails are it is entirely BS.
Don't try to have rational discussions with crazy people.
Forget thinking outside the box, instead realize there is no box.
- Alicia Thompson


http://thompsonfarrierservice.com
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 05:47 #3

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mybluedanube wrote:
Don't try to have rational discussions with crazy people.

Some are like religious zealots, but some are actually quite sensible and can have reasonable discussions that benefit other readers.
Ant.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 13:15 #4

  • Jack Evers
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I haven't seen all of Bowker's work, but what I have seen falls in the category of clinical observation rather than research. I've had these conversations and asked BUA's to furnish references, perhaps venograms and I get the normal "it's common knowledge" type answer. Sometimes they fall back on Frau Strasser's statement that "anyone handling a lot of hooves realizes that a shod hoof is cooler than an unshod one". This is also a bogus statement that anyone with a remote sensing thermometer can quickly disprove. Besides, don't we feel for heat to signify pathology - why is heat suddenly a good thing?

You might check hopeforsoundness.com where a bit of Bowker's work is and look at his references - academics love to reference themselves - hey, I've been one. It works on some people tho. I remember asking a BUA for a reference to a Strasser statement and getting another Strasser article as a reference.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 13:40 #5

  • Jack Evers
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Another argument that I often hear is that feral horses live longer than domestic horses. Again "Strasser said". I can't even find good actuarial data on domestic horses. I do know that I expect my domestics to be useful well into their 20's.The only feral data I have found is on the Pryor Mt herd (Wyo/Mont border). This is a small herd of 100 to 200 head with a number of observers who know individual horses. The observation is that it is rare for one of these to live past 16 years and is the reason that contraception plans do not involve mares of 16 or older.

A complication that I have discussed with a BLM vet is that ageing a mature mouth involves wear patterns and the feral environment probably accelerates wear. He agrees that a horse they call 15 is likely to be closer to 12 or so.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 13:50 #6

  • Mike Ferrara
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It's not my cup of tea but I think this BUA thing would make for a good study in human psychology. In spite of the fact that a plane-Jane shoeing job so often does a great job of getting so many horses through in contrast to the trials a tribulations of barefoot or booted, they continue to try to invent reasons NOT to shoe.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 13:59 #7

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I beleive Mr. Reilly has information that would prove Bowker's research wrong.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 13:59 #8

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jack Evers wrote:
Another argument that I often hear is that feral horses live longer than domestic horses. Again "Strasser said".

IMO, the very fact that they so often refer to feral horses is a hint of what we are dealing with. There isn't anything natural about how we keep and use domestic horses. Except to illustrate just how different domestic horses are, feral horses are almost completely irrelevant.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 20:24 #9

  • Gary Hill
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The BUA are clueless because for one thing they do not consider envionment that the feral live in. Wyoming/Nevada and Brazil are differant envionments and the horses have completely opposite problems?
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 05 Jul 2010 23:55 #10

  • Anthony_Lawrence
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"it's common knowledge"
"anyone handling a lot of hooves realizes that a shod hoof is cooler than an unshod one"
"feral horses live longer than domestic horses"
"Strasser said"


It's clear that these people are the same all over the world. All I can say is that this Strasser wench must have some charisma as she is regarded an nothing short of some sort of messiah, her writings as gospel. W T F?

Jack Evers - "I haven't seen all of Bowker's work, but what I have seen falls in the category of clinical observation rather than research."
cuttinshoer - "I beleive Mr. Reilly has information that would prove Bowker's research wrong."


This is really what I'm after. My googling skills seem sub-par, if this info exists online somewehre I am incapable of finding it. If Dr Reilly has such information I would love to get hold of it.

Many thanks for the replies thus far.
Ant.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 06 Jul 2010 00:33 #11

Anthony_Lawrence wrote:

This is really what I'm after. My googling skills seem sub-par, if this info exists online somewehre I am incapable of finding it. If Dr Reilly has such information I would love to get hold of it.

Many thanks for the replies thus far.

About 3 years ago he was travelling around doing some hoof seminars with Pete Ramey and this all came out. He's never "published" the study or observations. There were some seminar notes published by a couple of different sources I think on the Easy Care boot site. I don't know if they're still there or not. I think there were also some notes published on Yvonne Welz's site "Thehorseshoof.com", but I haven't looked recently. Plus, they were just interpretations of what people heard him say, so not really "published" information.

I heard him speak back in 2003 or so and he did say that his work was all "observation" and the listener could take it as he wanted. Bowker said he wasn't ready to draw conclusions. I guess he's drawn some conclusions now :-)
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 06 Jul 2010 00:56 #12

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Thanks Karen.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 06 Jul 2010 01:31 #13

  • Anthony_Lawrence
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KarenStandefer wrote:
About 3 years ago he was travelling around doing some hoof seminars with Pete Ramey and this all came out. He's never "published" the study or observations. There were some seminar notes published by a couple of different sources I think on the Easy Care boot site. I don't know if they're still there or not. I think there were also some notes published on Yvonne Welz's site "Thehorseshoof.com", but I haven't looked recently. Plus, they were just interpretations of what people heard him say, so not really "published" information.

I heard him speak back in 2003 or so and he did say that his work was all "observation" and the listener could take it as he wanted. Bowker said he wasn't ready to draw conclusions. I guess he's drawn some conclusions now :-)

Yep thanks Karen, have had a look in those places. There are a couple of references to talks on the topic, but can't find any published "science" (or even observations). Just assertions that shoes reduce circulation. :rolleyes:
Ant.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 06 Jul 2010 02:35 #14

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Here is a reply from one SHP on the NZ forum (one of the people you can have a sensible discussion with).
There is a lot of stuff that reports on Bowker's clinics but as far as I know (I stand to be corrected) his peripheral loading studies using Dopplar ultrasound were carried out on his horses and were not conducted or written up as a formal study. Same thing for the computer model of stresses on the pedal bone. I don't know of any studies which confirm or refute them.
Ant.
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RE:Bowker, Peripheral Loading and Circulation 07 Jul 2010 00:02 #15

  • brian robertson
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Wonderful Bob , as we call him herer in Mid Michigan, often uses the analogy, of the comparison of a human finger nail and horse's hoof. He then asks his guilable audience to press on the finger nails then notice how the nails turn whitish in color; then he states without any qualification, that when farriers drive horseshoe nails, the same whiteness/restriction of circulation occurrs in their horses' hooves. Much like wrapping a rubber band around some appendage, horseshoes with nails cause the horses' hooves to become numb; that's why horseshoes "appear" to make horses feel better. Oh the horror!

After listening to his drivel one too many times; I asked for clarifications of his statements so I would have no misunderstanding of his "facts"; he then repeated them to me very slowly, ver batum, as if I was mentally impared.

I mentioned to him that I have used rubberbands to castrate calves and lambs for nearly 50 years so I know what the lack of circulation will do...
I then told him, I must be very lucky since after more than 36 years of shoeing, none of my shod horses have ever had a hoof fall off from lack of circulation. So He might want to revise his facts.....
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