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TOPIC: Reading the hoof.

RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 12:27 #31

  • irishcas
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Broodmare, had a laminitic attack 3 - 4 months prior to the current episode.

Her feet don't look horrible, looks like someone took reasonable care of her, but didn't get trimmed on a 5 weeks basis. Wet environment, outside a lot based on frog and the look of the heel bulbs.

I think many of the barefoot persuasion who say they can determine how to trim based on the collateral groove depth and the depth of the apex of the frog would have seriously misread this foot. As would a lot of farriers. I sure did. I figured laminitis and some rotation but not what I saw with the frog. That blew me away.

I showed that foot all around the IHCS and had lengthy discussions with many in the bar at night ;) Many said the only thing wrong with the horse was high heels :(

I didn't misread that blob of sole material in front of the frog, though. That should not get trimmed, wether leaving bare or shoeing. That was thrown down as protection. It is really fascinating if you look at the growth of that area on the inside of the foot. I have a huge file that you can zoom in on and what you can see is amazing. I can't upload it here, too big. If anyone wants it PM your email addy and I'll send it out.

If anyone wants to discuss the other foot, let me know, I'll put up pix again, first outside, discussion, then inside.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 12:44 #32

irishcas wrote:
I didn't misread that blob of sole material in front of the frog, though. That should not get trimmed, wether leaving bare or shoeing. That was thrown down as protection. It is really fascinating if you look at the growth of that area on the inside of the foot.

If anyone wants to discuss the other foot, let me know, I'll put up pix again, first outside, discussion, then inside.

Kim,
Is the "blob" of sole you're referring to just at the apex of the frog, where the bars meet, or up closer to the white line, what some refer to as sole callous?
I see the bars meet occasionally, but never associated it with any pathology. Perhaps I've been missing something I shouldn't. Thanks.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 13:00 #33

Kim,

Apologies. I re-read the thread and see that you have circled the area you were referencing in a later picture.

I would like to read any discussion about nthe area where the bars meet that you or anyone else might add. Any idea why some horses have this and others don't? Does it indicate anything to you? Thanks.

Regards,
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 16:55 #34

  • irishcas
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Rick, are you talking about bar material that looks like sole that runs from heel around apex to heel? Any photos that could elaborate on your question?
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 16:57 #35

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Western Hill Forge wrote:
I would like to read any discussion about nthe area where the bars meet that you or anyone else might add. Any idea why some horses have this and others don't? Does it indicate anything to you? Thanks.

Regards,

Preface--this is just my observation on a few horses---

I have seen it on some that have inadequate sole depth and live on sand. It's like the foot is trying to "jack up" the coffin bone via the bars and wall alone.

Ruth Hamilton
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 17:53 #36

  • Luna butte
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ok, so who all new that the foot that was being discussed, was in fact the same foot in Mrs. Kims avatar at the time she began this thread?
Justin Hill's Horseshoeing
Goldendale Wa
509-261-1508

http://gorgefarrier.com/

I'm just another guy that play's in a lot of other peoples Poop... for a living I might add
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 17:56 #37

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Luna butte wrote:
ok, so who all new that the foot that was being discussed, was in fact the same foot in Mrs. Kims avatar at the time she began this thread?


Not me Justin, I was just playing along trying to learn something.
Chad Rice, CF
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 18:16 #38

irishcas wrote:
Rick, are you talking about bar material that looks like sole that runs from heel around apex to heel? Any photos that could elaborate on your question?

Kim, yes, that's it. It's extended bar, from heel to heel, around the apex of the frog. Some horses have it, most don't. Thanks

Regards,
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 18:46 #39

  • Joey Aczon
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Luna butte wrote:
ok, so who all new that the foot that was being discussed, was in fact the same foot in Mrs. Kims avatar at the time she began this thread?

It was? I didn't put the two together though. Kind of makes me feel like a **** ***.
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 19:54 #40

  • Alicia Thompson
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Yeah I saw the avatar too. ;D
Forget thinking outside the box, instead realize there is no box.
- Alicia Thompson


http://thompsonfarrierservice.com
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 20:47 #41

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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Kim, yes, that's it. It's extended bar, from heel to heel, around the apex of the frog. Some horses have it, most don't. Thanks

Regards,

In my opinion and take that for what it is worth, that material is there to support a thin sole. I wouldn't remove it on a barefoot horse or an Epona shod horse. Not sure about steel as that material is different than what hits the sole on the Epona's.

I find when I develop sole mass that that material pops off all on it's own.

I'm on my laptop, when I get back to my desktop, I'll see if can find some pix to share.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Reading the hoof. 21 Feb 2010 21:22 #42

irishcas wrote:
In my opinion and take that for what it is worth, that material is there to support a thin sole. I wouldn't remove it on a barefoot horse or an Epona shod horse. Not sure about steel as that material is different than what hits the sole on the Epona's.

I find when I develop sole mass that that material pops off all on it's own.

I'm on my laptop, when I get back to my desktop, I'll see if can find some pix to share.

Thanks Kim. Makes sense. Best ( and only ) answer I've ever gotten.
I generally remove it and haven't had a problem - yet. Guess I'll rethink that.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Reading the hoof. 22 Feb 2010 00:37 #43

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Just to stir the pot a little bit. Pete Ramey uses the collateral grooves to measure the position of the Coffin Bone. I used to think he might have some clue about what he is talking about and I've come to realize that it just isn't so.

My hoof model, measures 1" at the CG depth and 1/2" at the apex of the frog. I think he and his groupies would say that this foot could have frog and heels taken way down. (I am well aware that we have shrinkage, you all know what I'm talking about, right :p)

I'm guessing that this horse was probably very lame upon her demise, so I doubt I would have taken anything off the bottom. I'd have been looking to stabilize and get her comfortable. Worry about trimming in a few weeks.

Anyway, what is the correct CG depth for any horse and can we use it as a trim guideline. Someone else asked about this recently and I thought Pete was still right. I don't think so anymore. Maybe, just maybe it can be a thought in our head when we look at everything else, but it sure as shoot isn't the end all be all of a trimming guideline.

Radiographs are the way to go and even then they are up to interpretation!

Just more thoughts.
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Reading the hoof. 22 Feb 2010 00:40 #44

  • Joey Aczon
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I have personally found a correlation between this shelf and upright/clubby type feet with really straight quarters. I think it has something to do with a deep crest on the bottom of the coffin bone and the edge of the bone being at or near the same depth as the collateral grooves.

Possibly this part of the sole is simply not distorted and still at full depth where as the sole under the bone is distorted thin and possibly abraded beyond normal.
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:Reading the hoof. 22 Feb 2010 16:18 #45

  • DavidinGA
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irishcas wrote:
Just to stir the pot a little bit. Pete Ramey uses the collateral grooves to measure the position of the Coffin Bone. I used to think he might have some clue about what he is talking about and I've come to realize that it just isn't so.

My hoof model, measures 1" at the CG depth and 1/2" at the apex of the frog. I think he and his groupies would say that this foot could have frog and heels taken way down. (I am well aware that we have shrinkage, you all know what I'm talking about, right :p)

I'm guessing that this horse was probably very lame upon her demise, so I doubt I would have taken anything off the bottom. I'd have been looking to stabilize and get her comfortable. Worry about trimming in a few weeks.

Anyway, what is the correct CG depth for any horse and can we use it as a trim guideline. Someone else asked about this recently and I thought Pete was still right. I don't think so anymore. Maybe, just maybe it can be a thought in our head when we look at everything else, but it sure as shoot isn't the end all be all of a trimming guideline.

Radiographs are the way to go and even then they are up to interpretation!

Just more thoughts.



Kim,

I was thinking the same thing about Pete Ramey's ideas on CGs when I saw the inside of this hoof so I'm glad you brought it up. I still think that they are a pretty good indicator of M/L balance but I hadn't yet subcribed to the whole package and ( judging from this hoof) I'm glad I hadn't. Hopefully you'll put the other hoof up for discussion too because, I've been amazed at the way folks are reading this one seeing all kinds of things I didn't. Great thread.

Thanks
David
David H. Van Hook
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