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TOPIC: Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays.

RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 20 Oct 2009 12:29 #61

Phil Armitage wrote:
.............because if the full range of articulation is compromised, how can you measure the center? The ball is now in your court. :)

From my viewpoint, you're talking about a restricted range of motion. Still the center of articulation remains the same. It may be restricted, but it's not relocated.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 20 Oct 2009 16:09 #62

I'm not sure why the position of the COA is a debate anyway. What makes it tricky is that P3 does not move around an infinite small spot, but slides over (or rather under :rolleyes:) the distal end of P2.

However the COA is always the same. In a distorted foot, in a flexed or stretched foot, always.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 20 Oct 2009 22:10 #63

  • Rick Burten
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;)Phil Armitage wrote:
If you are measuring a static point then yes your assumption would be correct, however when the term Center of articulation is used then I assume we are talking about the range of an articulating surface.
Now Phil, you know what they say about assuming......;) COA to me refers to an anatomical location which is the same, regardless.
Articulation implies movement, what are the two stops front and back.
The places where articulation ends.
So no it is not the same on all horses,
Sure it is. And there are enough studies out there to support that position.
looks good on paper but what is the real range of movement and tolerance?
Doesn't matter. The COA of any joint remains the same.
Keep in mind using the COA as a reference that is thrown out to be used for breakover, shoe placement and where to trim the heels and it is is merely a tool and a good tool I might add. Other variables come into play such sole depth, sinking, rotation, impact and load, medial lateral balance, underrun heels, long toe, thickness of the hoof capsule, condition of the frog, digital cushion, bars, joints, quarter cracks, poor hoof pastern alignment, negative palmer angle ................
Actually, in the face of any or all those variables the fact remains that the COA[and in some cases, the lack of articulation at its anatomical location] is basically static.
Pathology not withstanding, what do you mean?
That means that regardless(some might use the non-word 'irregardless :o ;) ) of the pathology/pathologies present, the COA of the DIPJ remains the same.
Are you saying most of the horses you get under are 100% sound.
From your mouth to God's ears....(IOW, no)
I don't think so.
As noted, me either.
Nice talking to you Rick.
To you too Phil.

Rick
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 21 Oct 2009 10:46 #64

Ronald Aalders wrote:
I'm not sure why the position of the COA is a debate anyway. What makes it tricky is that P3 does not move around an infinite small spot, but slides over (or rather under :rolleyes:) the distal end of P2.

However the COA is always the same. In a distorted foot, in a flexed or stretched foot, always.


Ronald Aalders

Yes the reference is always the same. Not arguing that point at all and neither was Linda M. Good tool to use on distorted feet, upright, low, long or short. Range of motion, leverage, impact and load that is the tricky part. Your use of banana shoes gets my attention especially horses that have broken back HPA, increasing breakover is not enough and they cannot handle wedging.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 21 Oct 2009 10:51 #65

KarenStandefer wrote:
From my viewpoint, you're talking about a restricted range of motion. Still the center of articulation remains the same. It may be restricted, but it's not relocated.

Yes, the reference anatomically does not change, I agree. The restricted range of motion is virtually impossible to determine and in my opinion impossible to say for certain what the center of the range is, even on a sound/healthy horse. Keep in mind the COA is a reference point, what you decide to do with it is up to you.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 21 Oct 2009 11:17 #66

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Ronald Aalders wrote:
I'm not sure why the position of the COA is a debate anyway. ...stuff deleted...

Ronald Aalders

Ronald,

When I opened this thread I didn't intend that it should be a debate. I simply wanted to see what methods people used to determine COA for themselves because I had just read the article ( which I posted a link to ) and it pretty much disproved every method it tested except for Duckett's and using the tip of the trimmed frog. The article even said that those weren't 100% reliable but looking at their data points the tip of the trimmed frog seems pretty close to me. I figured there would be about as many ways to find COA as there are farriers but I didn't expect it to be such a hotly debated topic. I will say however, that I am learning from this thread and I appreciate everyone's input.


Thanks
David
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 23 Oct 2009 00:35 #67

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Lets say we have a foot with a broken back axis, the distal end of p-2 is usually lower in the capsule. So if we elevate the foot to restore the hpa with wedges or whatever means and also providing support to p-2. By doing this do we not elevate the distal end of p-2, would that not change the COA measurement on the bottom of the foot. I'm not saying the actual COA changes but would the point on the bottom of the foot change. Geometry tells me it would but I have been wrong before.

The reason I am thinking this is because of this x-ray if the coa is measured and we provide 50\50 relationship the front portion of the 50% is not obtainable. Somebody please explain what I am doing wrong, I am about to pull my hair out.

Justin Decker

[ATTACH]11609[/ATTACH]
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Justin Decker

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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 23 Oct 2009 01:08 #68

  • Clint Burrell
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cuttinshoer wrote:
Lets say we have a foot with a broken back axis, the distal end of p-2 is usually lower in the capsule. So if we elevate the foot to restore the hpa with wedges or whatever means and also providing support to p-2. By doing this do we not elevate the distal end of p-2, would that not change the COA measurement on the bottom of the foot. I'm not saying the actual COA changes but would the point on the bottom of the foot change. Geometry tells me it would but I have been wrong before.

The reason I am thinking this is because of this x-ray if the coa is measured and we provide 50\50 relationship the front portion of the 50% is not obtainable. Somebody please explain what I am doing wrong, I am about to pull my hair out.

Justin Decker

[ATTACH]11609[/ATTACH]

Justin,
Don't over think it or pull your hair out. Both will hurt.:D Think of your red line as a pendulum or plum line. As you raise the joint, your line will move forward. Thus gaining ground surface at the back of the foot and getting you closer to a 50/50 ratio. You haven't changed the center of articulation,just raised it up.;)

Clint
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 23 Oct 2009 01:16 #69

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Clint Burrell wrote:

Justin,
Don't over think it or pull your hair out. Both will hurt.:D Think of your red line as a pendulum or plum line. As you raise the joint, your line will move forward. Thus gaining ground surface at the back of the foot and getting you closer to a 50/50 ratio. You haven't changed the center of articulation,just raised it up.;)

Clint

Thanks Clint, that is exactly how I was think about it but wanted to make sure I was on the right path because everyone said it couldn't change.

Justin Decker
Justin Decker

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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 23 Oct 2009 18:21 #70

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DavidinGA wrote:
I figured there would be about as many ways to find COA as there are farriers but I didn't expect it to be such a hotly debated topic. I will say however, that I am learning from this thread and I appreciate everyone's input.


Thanks
David

Gee David, I'm glad someone else is such a troublemaker, it was starting to feel lonely in my corner :D
Kim Cassidy
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 23 Oct 2009 18:50 #71

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irishcas wrote:
Gee David, I'm glad someone else is such a troublemaker, it was starting to feel lonely in my corner :D

Now see here, I'm not a trouble maker at all...I will however instigate and agitate any trouble that has already been started.;)

David
David H. Van Hook
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 23 Oct 2009 19:27 #72

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Does COA really have anything to do with horses ?
Is it not a spot, and not a line looked at from the side??
Where is the body in relation to COA and the weight and the amount of weight and position of that weight inflight and the limb in question ..?
If COA not just a model that is easy to look at ??and is not the over all balance more important??
Is not gravitational pull the thing ...sure horses on the moon would not have as many problems as here on earth???

Happy for any answers and sorry if I missed the point all together..:p
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RE:Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays. 23 Oct 2009 21:17 #73

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Ray_Knightley wrote:
Does COA really have anything to do with horses ?
Is it not a spot, and not a line looked at from the side??
Where is the body in relation to COA and the weight and the amount of weight and position of that weight inflight and the limb in question ..?
If COA not just a model that is easy to look at ??and is not the over all balance more important??
Is not gravitational pull the thing ...sure horses on the moon would not have as many problems as here on earth???

Happy for any answers and sorry if I missed the point all together..:p

Ray,
Yes,yes and yes. Horses on the moon wouldn't have as "many" problems,but ,that lack of oxygen thing might be a big one to overcome.:p

As for the "point", it's always at the end. Unless it's broken, then it's in the middle somewhere.:D

Clint

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but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
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