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TOPIC: AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles?

RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 01:14 #31

Jaye Perry;169592]typical BUA reply; you are not reading the agenda points Pard!
Yes I see now...
True; Clayton, in her book ( with collaboration from others) deducted that induced lameness had no effect on the feet. ~~~ slow onset was not looked at.
Bookworm.....
some parameters do. working horses will go lame; only a "definite diagnosis" of the issue(s) clears the confusion.
Ya,So? we gotta do what we gotta do...
her remarks reminds me of this:
We all have a learning "curve"...:cool:
[ATTACH]10403[/ATTACH]
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Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 02:02 #32

  • Jaye Perry
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Brian Purrington-

Bookworm.....

yep, so?


Ya,So? we gotta do what we gotta do...

yep, keep horses as sound as we can for as long as we can; then start over.
We all have a learning "curve"...:cool:

some can hit the curve ball and others strikeout!:eek::cool:
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 02:12 #33

Jaye Perry;yep, so?
Sign of age or maturity?
yep, keep horses as sound as we can for as long as we can; then start over.
Ever feel like yer swimmin against the current?
some can hit the curve ball and others strikeout!:eek::cool:
Practice makes "perfect".... well, closer to it than those who don't practice.

As I tell my "ride alongs".... "at this point, just be better than the last guy... and remember, there is always someone better...."

Now, where did I put those fresh batteries.......?

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 03:25 #34

  • J.H. shoeing
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jaysanvil wrote:
Don't forget the homeopath and animal communicator.

thats right transfer the energy....

OMG not another monkey spirit:eek:
Jeff Holder

Some people are like Slinky’s, pretty much useless but make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 03:26 #35

Jaye Perry wrote:

This graph was used in a lecture by one farrier to demonstrate that one farrier's personal experience as he reflected back on his career as a farrier. It is interesting how accurate it is even though the paths we take are different. Probably because that is the way we tick and why the term tenure is commonly used in a variety of professions and trades. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 03:50 #36

  • Clint Burrell
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My graph don't look like that. That one only covers till I was @25. Mines more hilly, like parts of Texas before they hauled it off in gravel trucks.;) :D
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 05:47 #37

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Crud, I'm on the down slide of that dang graph. I'm getting dummer, how the heck do I keep going? I'm going to Jaye's in Sept., ya think he can save me? Now I don't know what to do, way to go Jaye, you just made me realise I don't know anything.:eek::rolleyes:
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 10:45 #38

This graph represents the person that begins with an entry level education and becomes an installer. The drop represents the point at which their initial education fails them and they begin the development of " power of observation". This is when questioning begins and the learning process starts over, with a new perspective. Common example, it is taught ( assumed) that raising the heel drops the fetlock, individual applies wedge and hmmmm ? I wedged that foot and the fetlock assumed a steeper angle. How is this ? Now begins the real learning.........
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 11:16 #39

DeniseMc - Brian, I never ever claimed to be better than everyone I come behind. But I think in these cases I posted here I was able to address some issues some other hoofcare providers didn't recognize. Maybe your opinion is different
Show me once where I said that you were wrong. I was just pointing out that thare are other experiences out there. As far as "being better" it was your presentation. Realisticly no one can or will "fix" every horse they crawl under. Your point of view was that NPA was a simple fix with a trim. You stated that all the cases you worked on were a result of imbalanced trimming. I drew my conclusions/opinion from that.
There was never any intent on my part to turn this into barefoot vs shod.
Nor was it mine. I was actually interested in seeing radiographic evidence of barefoot corrected NPA. There was no agenda on my part, except having dialogue and maybe learnin' a bit.
In response to Wtx shoers request for photos (note: he didn't request photos of xrays), I posted a few photos of hooves that I think in my opinion demonstrate NPA. I explained what I look for to assess whether they are NPA (in my opinion) absent xrays. I also mentioned how I address the hooves I think are NPA and then presented some photos of befores and afters.
And I never disagreed with your points. I just presented my experience. I think you had some good pics, some good thoughts and decent results. I do think your exposure is limited in that you have presented the opinion that you could "fix" all cases barefoot. It's just not realistic.
Brian, I still think your sarcastic joke about trimming to blood was uncalled for
All due respect.... Get over it.
......as you proceeded to preach to me that I can't fix most by just trimming toe, that I needed to address the "causative" and provide "something supportive".
I never told you or "preached" to you about your cases. Again, I was interested in your approach and wanted to see some radigraphic evidence.
Or that I need vet intervention to inject hocks, etc etc.
Sometimes we do sometimes we don't. And that was one case that I presented. Others have needed Chiro, one is a "kissing spine" horse (I'd love for someone to trim that one and fix the NPA) some were long standing front end injuries/issues that resulted in years of compensatory weight distribution. I have had sucesses and failures some I just have to keep as sound as I can.
Thank you very much for the advice. Have a good day.
There was no "advice" given just exchange of ideas, experience and results. It was not my intent to discredit you. It was my intent to give the OP a wider view of what he could come across with the specific topic he asked about. Sharing objective sucess and failure experiences is both how we learn and teach. It also keeps us realistic enough to accept our limitations.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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www.wellshodhorses.com
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 11:22 #40

  • Rick Burten
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DeniseMc wrote:
BS, The graph says nothing about getting "dummer" -the y axis is confidence. It says we lose confidence the longer we're at this, whether it's just trimming or trimming and shoeing.
That's how I read it too.
We lose confidence as we gain experience over the years but still see cases that defy our best efforts and don't respond positively. We have to resort to other explainations such as weight distribution, horses job, environment.....
So you are equating a gain in experience to using obfuscation because something we do/did didn't turn out the way we expected?

Personally, when there seems to be no explanation I just shrug my shoulders and say "Quien sabe....".
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 11:42 #41

  • Jaye Perry
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BS-Horseshoeing.......Now I don't know what to do, way to go Jaye, you just made me realise I don't know anything.:eek::rolleyes:..

don't thank me! Thank Patrick O'Rielly, CJF*;):D



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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 11:46 #42

  • tbloomer
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DeniseMc wrote:
Maybe not what? Maybe not "neg"? or maybe not "just my opinion"?
Denise
Without radiographs before and after on multiple cases you have an opinion. It helps to have your guesswork confirmed by something measureable and repeatable. Otherwise you never learn to make "educated" guesses.

Observe, theorize, test, confirm. That's science.

Observe, theorize, decide. That's presumption.

Right now you are presuming that what you were taught is correct. This is SAFE. You're confident and comfortable because you've been taught, told, or sold ideas and ideals.

The minute you realize that just because it was taught to YOU does not mean it was correct, you aren't safe anymore. When you get that uncomfortable feeling, then you make a choice; Learn from it or live in denial.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 14:42 #43

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Jaye Perry wrote:
don't thank me! Thank Patrick O'Rielly, CJF*;):D



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Well, you got the meaning at least. I'll be sure to thank Pat for helping me to realise my short comings.:cool:
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 14:46 #44

  • Jaye Perry
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Well, you got the meaning at least. I'll be sure to thank Pat for helping me to realise my short comings.:cool:

JOIN THE CROWD!:cool:
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 16 Aug 2009 09:42 #45

  • tbloomer
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DeniseMc wrote:
If you were to be presented with hooves like those and did not have the benefit of xrays what would you think?
Denise
First, lets get our frame of reference sorted out, shall we? People don't present us with hooves, they present us with horses. I'm using the word "us" deliberately. I hope it encourages you to keep an open mind. ;)

Some farriers would have said, "People present you with feet, they present me with horses." or "I shoe horses, not feet." or "I am a HORSE shoer, not a FOOT shoer." That would be followed with "tenure" and "experience" and all that stuff that the big shots use to put a passionate rookie in their place. Usually that place involves you kissing their A$$. I would be very happy if you didn't kiss mine or anybody elses. OTOH, don't get comfortable either. :cool:

Following is some stuff to make you think. It may help you in the future to not make some mistakes I have made and thus not require you to have some "experience" that I have.
My experience from not getting x-rays and DIRECT veterinary consultation when I request it has taught me to walk away from the horse. Horse owners will often push a farrier to comPROmise on having veterinary involvement in order to save money. It's a knee jerk reaction. They will flatter you. Tell you, "You're really good, you don't need a vet." You will eat it up. Yea, I can handle this. Owner is happy because NOW you're saving them money AND fixing their lame horse.

Every time you comPROmise, it gets easier to do it. It becomes a habit. You get "confident" because you can get results without a vet's help. Word gets around. You build a reputation . . .

Eventually the vets in your sandpile will begin to think of you as so arrogant that you "don't need" their help. AND they will be RIGHT! After all, you built a reputation. :rolleyes:

Then when the owner decides to call the vet on their own because you tried and failed, FIRST THING the vet is going to do is recommend a hoof care pro that they can work with - Hint, it WON'T BE YOU. 'nuther hint, the owner won't return your telephone calls asking what happened with the vet. Hint, the vet won't return your telephone calls asking what happened with the horse. Everybody EXCEPT YOU will know that on THIS ONE HORSE you guessed WRONG.

Welcome to the horse business. :cool:
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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