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TOPIC: AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles?

RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 11 Aug 2009 23:01 #16

  • ctlngrdr
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I shoe a quarter horse with hind feet like these . the horse is built very down hill . Do any of you notice certain body conformations that go along with npa?
Jeff
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 11 Aug 2009 23:43 #17

  • Jaye Perry
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mwmyersdvm-Here are some "diagnoses" that are highly suspect of negative hind palmar angles:

It's plantar in the pelvic limbs and palmar in the thoracic limbs; we all get confused sometimes...:confused:

Sore back
Sore stifles
Sore withers
Sore hocks

Other signs:
Mild hind lameness defying diagnosis
Stopping at jumps
Missing leads
Cross cantering
Heavy on forehand

These are some areas that can either be caused or exacerbated by negative palmar angles behind.

Even more signs:
"My horse needs regular hock injections"
"My horse gets regular chiropractic/acupuncture/massage therapy"
"My horse needs a saddle fitter"
"My horse needs regular Adequan/Legend/(Other) injections"


M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

"suspicious diagnosis?" Explain why you are sceptical of others' diagnosis or experiences?
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 11 Aug 2009 23:56 #18

  • westtxshoer
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Denise, thanks for the pics. I too am having a difficult time understanding how you can trim out a NPA. The horses I see that obviously have a negative palmar or plantar angle wear the heels when left bare. I can assure you that there is not a farrier anywhere near here that takes off too much heel. If the horse was stall kept on shavings and soft ground I can see it, but if turned out on firm ground or abrasive soil?
RJ Little
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817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 12 Aug 2009 00:18 #19

Many times, the neg plane is driven from above. Hocks, Back, Stifle.

"Fix" the NPA and the causation usually rears its head. Address the causation and managing the NPA becomes non issue.

Westtex, I suggest a lesson in trimming to anatomical parameters. It has helped me immensely.
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 12 Aug 2009 03:44 #20

  • westtxshoer
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That's funny, Brian. Should I now carry a selection of paper towels?:D

Yep, I need a lesson on trimming to "anatomical parameters." I can't see how to fix a negative plantar angle without shoes and maybe wedges. Trim the toe and leave the heel, trim the toe and leave the heel and repeat...:confused:
RJ Little
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817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 12 Aug 2009 11:47 #21

DeniseMc wrote:
Yes, I do trim toe. No, I don't hit blood, (at least not yet!). I often see blood in the white line, but it's from bruising higher up. I will sometimes trim more in the toe quarters than toe itself, depending on arch of coronet. I will also trim the crushed heels too and don't hit blood.
Brian, I would probably not trim at that steep of an angle on a first trim; I would probably trim at a lower angle and continue to trim at the lower angle till bull nosing is gone then trim "normally".
I will post some before and after photos of some of the hooves I already showed. I tried posting and uploading photos once already this morning and lost the connection; being on dial-up it's especially frustrating, but will try again... I'm running out of time this morning though...

It was a joke... You cannot "trim out" most neg plane horses.
(my bold indicates that you can trim out some just for clarification)

The causation has to be addresed before you can effect a real change.
Sure, you can make small steps with the external view and HPA but the NPA is usually being driven from somewhere else so each time you go back to work on that horse, unless you have stabilized the DIPJ with something, you are going to be fighting the causation.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 12 Aug 2009 18:12 #22

DeniseMc wrote:
Hmmm, well, so far in my experience I have had pretty good luck just by rebalancing the hooves and leaving them barefoot.... Hmmm, now that I think about it, most of the horses I trim are usually turned out, maybe that "stabilizing something" is dirt?:D
Denise

You have palmer/plantar contact with bare horses but typically that contact was there even with the NPA. Sounds like a trimming or wearing issue but I'd be interested in seeing x-rays of your corrected NPA cases.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 12 Aug 2009 21:15 #23

DeniseMc wrote:
Yes, xrays before and after in all the cases would be nice, but there are none (except the chestnut who only had "before" xrays and who I ended up not working on-she was euthed the day after I saw her. Even when she was sedated the vet could not straighten the pastern on that club foot; I told the owners I thought there was too much damage for me to even attempt to help her. She spent most of her time lying down, I think she was beyond all help and the vet didn't offer any hope either. I do have her hooves and bones---what a painful story they tell. sorry for getting off topic)
Why do you suppose the bull nosing and crushed heels would go away if the NPA wasn't being corrected-or maybe I'm misunderstanding you? The ones I've worked on all have been due to previously unbalanced trimming.

Denise,

Weight distribution is a common culprit and "corrector".

Horses shift their weight for many reasons, front end lameness, back soreness, fatigue, traumatic injury, (long after recovery) even subclinical lameness can be the originating causation. So if you were trimming the horse and giving the horse a "correct" physiological/anotomical base, thus relieving one or more of those reasons you may have been able to correct the NPA. This would indicate the horse as a whole was not being addressed before you. Or possibly the previous trimmer was taking too much heel or not enough toe, Who knows....?

The NPA I see most commonly is hind end bilateral and/or a combination of a diagonal fore. The diagonal "connected" will typically be the "low foot" on the front and corresponding diagonal hind. The connected diagonal pair will be the more "severe" NPA feet. I attribute and can connect these cases to SI issues, hock injuries/issues, HI/LO front end, stifle issues, the list goes on. Unfortunately those areas are difficult to address on the end of the limb. "Forcing" a correction in NPA foot/feet will usually make other things show up. As most attentive farriers know, you "fix" one thing and another issue shows up... (horseshoer's "Whack a Mole")

Sometimes we run into the wall with this situation because of current or prior use, health, rider habits, etc. Variables that we have no functional control over.

I am talking about horses that work for a living, as those are the kind I have on my book. The pasture plugs and or retirees have their own set of variables but without the constant rider interjection.

For example, a school horse might get ridden twice a day sometimes three, four or five days a week so a low average means that horse is being ridden by eight different riders all with different (usually poor to fair) levels of skill, habits, weight, positioning etc. This factor multiplies the variables considerably.

An event horse will be asked to carry itself and perform quite differently through it's three disciplines and although most event horses have a constant rider influence those three disciplines are atheleticly challenging enough that most event horses have short careers. Again multiplied weight distribution factors.

These are just two instances where external influence on weight distribution is beyond our control. Sometimes we can make a change sometimes not.

As Farriers/Trimmers we like to think we have a huge influence on each horse we get under and in some cases we do, but generally speaking we have limited influence. That is why it is of utmost importance to consider and understand variables, make adjustments when needed, and treat every shoeing as a theraputic application for that individual animal and it's situation. This maximizes our limited effect.

That is Farriery.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 13 Aug 2009 11:35 #24

DeniseMc wrote:
My thought on that is that often when mechanical devices are used to relieve stress on sore or injured soft tissues to allow "healing" that usually leads to added stress to uninjured areas which can lead to soreness and other issues in those areas that were originally unaffected, especially if the horse remains in work while injured or over-stressed areas are "healing". Pretty soon it seems you're fixing problems you've created?
Denise

Sure there are action/reaction factors that come into play but that is true of most any rehabilitative effort even in humans.

Consider this,

"added stress" or normal funtional stresses that have not been there due to adjusted weight distribution?
"Uninjured" or functionally 'unused' and atrophied becuase of compensation?
Wouldn't that come into play?

What about the times I have seen hind end NPA horses show up 'off' days after a "correct" trim/theraputic application and with veterinary investigation we find "crude oil" in the tarsus? Did that hock get like that in a matter of days? Why in those cases after injections did the Management of NPA become a non issue. Why did the feet in two or three cycles remodel, exfoliate differently and become more "normal" basicly on their own?

What about the ones that you trim thinking you are helping the horse and you come back in five weeks to find the sole sucked right back up into the capsule away from your "correct" trim? Do you just keep on doing what you are doing or do you look higher up?

"Mechanical devices" are used to reduce/enhance GRF, suport the limb, align the Phalages and create a more balanced platform for that digit to work on top of. In most cases for me It's as simple as grindersmithing on a shoe, some leather and MC. Hardly a "mechanical" device. That being said, I find that many cases have something else going on and get veterinary asstance.

I agree that sometimes as farriers/humans we can go overboard in our approach. We all make those mistakes but hopefully we learn from it.

I can see you have your mind set in this so we will have to agree that our individual experiences have been different.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 13 Aug 2009 13:55 #25

  • tbloomer
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DeniseMc wrote:
Hmmm, well, so far in my experience I have had pretty good luck just by rebalancing the hooves and leaving them barefoot.... Hmmm, now that I think about it, most of the horses I trim are usually turned out, maybe that "stabilizing something" is dirt?:D
Denise
Maybe.
I didn't have any xrays except for the chestnut in the first post (Yeah, the real obvious one) so without those it's just my opinion these were neg.
Maybe not.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 13 Aug 2009 22:03 #26

I wasn't going to reply and remain civil BUT since you insist on continuing....
Sure, but another factor to consider is the time over which changes are made. If dramatic changes are made all at once and then the horse is locked in a stall most of the time, more than likely there will be overstressing of soft tissues when the horse is taken out of the stall for work. If the changes are made slowly over time and the horse is out 24/7 the horse will adapt and adjust with less stress.
Oh, now I see the problem.... You live in a totally different world than I do. My mistake.
I work on horses that actually work for a living.
Well, let me get out my crystal ball and offer up some opinions, theories, and speculation. Hmmm, the last mechanic forgot to change the oil?
I thought you might be the crystal ball type....:rolleyes:
Let me clear things up... Hocks don't go bad overnight.
The hocks were bad, weight distribution was the culprit.
Well, without knowing any details let me again get out the crystal ball and offer up a scenario: maybe the hooves got really wet and the unrecognized false sole finally exfoliated and the toe was then trimmed down to the proper level and the NPA went away?
Your Crystal ball is WORE OUT....
First off, I take environment and weather into consideration along with every other factor I can think of on every case and I can assure you I don't "unrecognize" false sole. Anantomical parameters don't lie.
It's sometimes two steps forward, one step back. If progress isn't being made, yeah, I look higher up and do alot of praying. And oh, maybe call in a shoe god. No wait, call in a vet... or massage therapist or chiropractor or equine dentist...
Good, glad to see you have SOME sense.:eek:
Yes, so please, when I have done nothing but trim the hooves differently than the previous hoofcare person and the bull nosing disappears, steep hairline angle becomes more normal and concavity becomes more normal you don't need to make sarcastic jokes about trimming toes to blood.
Denise
Oh, I forgot who I was dealing with, you are better than everyone you go behind.... Yeah right. Keep strokin' that ego, it'll bite it's owner like an out of control pitbull eventually.:cool:

Please don't instruct me on how to present "humor", I dont "instruct" you on how to lighten up.....

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 00:31 #27

  • Jaye Perry
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Sure, but another factor to consider is the time over which changes are made. If dramatic changes are made all at once and then the horse is locked in a stall most of the time, more than likely there will be overstressing of soft tissues when the horse is taken out of the stall for work. If the changes are made slowly over time and the horse is out 24/7 the horse will adapt and adjust with less stress.
Brian Purrington-
Oh, now I see the problem.... You live in a totally different world than I do. My mistake.
I work on horses that actually work for a living.

typical BUA reply; you are not reading the agenda points Pard!



I thought you might be the crystal ball type....
Let me clear things up... Hocks don't go bad overnight.
The hocks were bad, weight distribution was the culprit.

True; Clayton, in her book ( with collaboration from others) deducted that induced lameness had no effect on the feet. ~~~ slow onset was not looked at.
Your Crystal ball is WORE OUT....
First off, I take environment and weather into consideration along with every other factor I can think of on every case and I can assure you I don't "unrecognize" false sole. Anantomical parameters don't lie.

some parameters do. working horses will go lame; only a "definite diagnosis" of the issue(s) clears the confusion.
......Yes, so please, when I have done nothing but trim the hooves differently than the previous hoofcare person and the bull nosing disappears, steep hairline angle becomes more normal and concavity becomes more normal......


Oh, I forgot who I was dealing with, you are better than everyone you go behind.... Yeah right. Keep strokin' that ego, it'll bite it's owner like an out of control pitbull eventually.:cool:


her remarks reminds me of this:









Please don't instruct me on how to present "humor", ....

OK. I will just "instruct" on how to do this:cool:






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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 00:41 #28

  • Rick Burten
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DeniseMc wrote:
And oh, maybe call in a shoe god. No wait, call in a vet... or massage therapist or chiropractor or equine dentist...
What's the difference between a vet/massage therapist/chiropractor/equine dentist and a shoe god?


The shoe god knows s/hes not a vet/massage therapist/chiropractor/equine dentist.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 00:49 #29

  • Jay Mickle
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Rick Burten wrote:
What's the difference between a vet/massage therapist/chiropractor/equine dentist and a shoe god?


The shoe god knows s/hes not a vet/massage therapist/chiropractor/equine dentist.

Don't forget the homeopath and animal communicator.
Jay Mickle
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 14 Aug 2009 00:53 #30

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jaysanvil wrote:
Don't forget the homeopath and animal communicator.

**** Jay! I forgot the VooDooo:eek::p;)
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