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TOPIC: AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles?

AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 09 Aug 2009 18:18 #1

  • westtxshoer
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I have tried to study this some on here and am still coming up short. There is quite a bit of mention of negative palmar and plantar angles, but not enough information. I think that these conditions are largely overlooked and uncorrected (I believe I have missed some myself) and I would like to learn all I can so that I may not miss another one.

What I would like to see on this thread is pictures. Especially pictures with lines and such drawn on them. Show me and others interested what it is exactly that you are noticing in a pic when you say that it has a NPA.

Brian Purrington, I am hoping you will post some pics here, as well as others.:D
RJ Little
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817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 09 Aug 2009 22:40 #2

westtxshoer - I have tried to study this some on here and am still coming up short. There is quite a bit of mention of negative palmar and plantar angles, but not enough information.
Simply put NPA is when the solar surface of the coffin bone in relation to the ground or bearing surface is dropped behind the COA and higher at the distal end of P3.

Note* Palmer would refer to forelimb Plantar would refer to hinds.
I think that these conditions are largely overlooked and uncorrected (I believe I have missed some myself) and I would like to learn all I can so that I may not miss another one.
Sometimes you can see it sometimes it is not really visible without rads. It's like most things... you develop an eye for it over time and with experience. You are correct there is a huge amount of it out there. Mostly on the hind end.
What I would like to see on this thread is pictures. Especially pictures with lines and such drawn on them. Show me and others interested what it is exactly that you are noticing in a pic when you say that it has a NPA.

Classic NPA is commonly noticable by the dorsal aspect bulge. This is not to be confused with a worn off or dubbed toe. To confirm that it is not just a toe dragger or dubbed off foot all you need is a visual of the toe wall on the solar surface.
Brian Purrington, I am hoping you will post some pics here, as well as others.:D

I'll help with what I can, there are much more experienced farriers here to draw from.

Here is a classic NPA hind.
[ATTACH]10333[/ATTACH]
Attachments:
Brian R. Purrington
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www.wellshodhorses.com
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 09 Aug 2009 23:44 #3

  • calshoer
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This is the typical convex shape you will see in a foot with a probable negative palmer angle. As the nice radiograph showed , the distal/dorsal surface of the bone is literally pushing against the hoofwall. this wll create a bruise in the lamina of the toe and that will often be seen as a chronic red line in the laminae of the toe that just never goes away.
Attachments:
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 09 Aug 2009 23:54 #4





These are the front feet of a 34 year old.

Jonathan Wilson
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 00:34 #5

  • tbloomer
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Jonathan,

You need shootin' advice? :eek:
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 00:44 #6

tbloomer wrote:
Jonathan,

You need shootin' advice? :eek:

There is a Vet around here that always says it is just a lead deficiency, that 1shot will cure them.:D

Jonathan Wilson
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 00:47 #7

Brian Purrington wrote:
Classic NPA is commonly noticable by the dorsal aspect bulge. This is not to be confused with a worn off or dubbed toe. To confirm that it is not just a toe dragger or dubbed off foot all you need is a visual of the toe wall on the solar surface.

I agree with Brian that especially with hind feet you see the dorsal aspect bulge.

Jonathan Wilson
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 01:22 #8

  • BPethick
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westtxshoer wrote:
I have tried to study this some on here and am still coming up short. There is quite a bit of mention of negative palmar and plantar angles, but not enough information. I think that these conditions are largely overlooked and uncorrected (I believe I have missed some myself) and I would like to learn all I can so that I may not miss another one.

What I would like to see on this thread is pictures. Especially pictures with lines and such drawn on them. Show me and others interested what it is exactly that you are noticing in a pic when you say that it has a NPA.

Brian Purrington, I am hoping you will post some pics here, as well as others.:D

Typically the coronary band points up at the horses belly when there is a negative plantar angle. The central sulcus is also very shallow to the bulbs where you can almost touch your fingers together if you were to palpate that area.

Bob Pethick CJF AFA #1340
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Only those who have the patience to do things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily...
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 20:11 #9

  • westtxshoer
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Thanks everyone for your posts. In the hinds is where I think I have seen it most. I don't see many rads and wanted some visual indicators of the condition. I knew that a bulging dorsal wall could be an indicator. I didn't realize that the horizontal red line was also a good indicator. Thanks for that.

Question? Without rads, could a horse with low heels on the hinds, a coronet pointing just below the shoulder, and a bulging dorsal wall be a candidate for NPA? There are three horses in particular I am thinking of and I have studied their hinds quite a bit. All have the condition I describe here and are bare on the hinds. None of the three have any lameness or gait issues that the trainer is aware of.
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 20:34 #10

  • Rick Burten
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westtxshoer wrote:
Question? Without rads, could a horse with low heels on the hinds, a coronet pointing just below the shoulder, and a bulging dorsal wall be a candidate for NPA?
In a word, yes. :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 22:43 #11

  • westtxshoer
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Denise, thanks for the pics. I can spot the obvious ones, fortunately:D. It's the less than obvious I am looking for help to confirm:o.
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 10 Aug 2009 23:13 #12

  • westtxshoer
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The top two pics in your last post is what I am looking for, Denise. These two have a negative plantar angle without a doubt?
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 11 Aug 2009 00:15 #13

westtxshoer wrote:
Question? Without rads, could a horse with low heels on the hinds, a coronet pointing just below the shoulder, and a bulging dorsal wall be a candidate for NPA? There are three horses in particular I am thinking of and I have studied their hinds quite a bit. All have the condition I describe here and are bare on the hinds. None of the three have any lameness or gait issues that the trainer is aware of.

With hind feet like this I have tried barefoot it is a good thing to try if they can tolerate it and do not need shoes.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 11 Aug 2009 14:06 #14

DeniseMc wrote:
As I said I didn't have any xrays except for the chestnut in the first post (Yeah, the real obvious one) so without those it's just my opinion these were neg. But I did see improvements in the horse's hooves, stances and comfort in the hind end after three months, which leads me to think I may have guessed correctly they were neg. to begin with as I trimmed them with the intention of correcting for neg cbs.

Hey, this may be a **** question on my part, but how do you trim with the intention of correcting the neg. coffin bone angles? I know what should happen- the horse needs more heel and less toe. But on a lot of horses with neg. angles, the heels are running under and not as supportive as a healthy heel should be. What can be done about that, especially barefoot? I ask because I have been maintaining my 26yr old Arabian gelding barefoot, and I never had luck getting rid of the neg coffin bone angles on his hinds. :(
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RE:AGAIN, negative palmar/plantar angles? 11 Aug 2009 18:52 #15

  • mwmyersdvm
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Here are some "diagnoses" that are highly suspect of negative hind palmar angles:

Sore back
Sore stifles
Sore withers
Sore hocks

Other signs:
Mild hind lameness defying diagnosis
Stopping at jumps
Missing leads
Cross cantering
Heavy on forehand

These are some areas that can either be caused or exacerbated by negative palmar angles behind.

Even more signs:
"My horse needs regular hock injections"
"My horse gets regular chiropractic/acupuncture/massage therapy"
"My horse needs a saddle fitter"
"My horse needs regular Adequan/Legend/(Other) injections"


M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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