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TOPIC: Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide....

Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 01 Aug 2009 15:21 #1

Bringing some thoughts over from that "way off track" thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ48KZPfky0&NR=1

sumin' ta think about.
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 01 Aug 2009 17:10 #2

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Brian Purrington wrote:
Bringing some thoughts over from that "way off track" thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ48KZPfky0&NR=1

sumin' ta think about.
I like it. Especially the changes in GRF at breakover. But it propably offends those who insist that the mechanical centers in the bones and joints move.
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 01 Aug 2009 19:55 #3

Who DARES question mechanical centers....?

I have this for them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcu68H4V0Lg&NR=1

:eek:
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 01 Aug 2009 20:18 #4

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Unless the horse has just begun the "stumble and fall on his face "stage of the stride, they are showing the middle phalanx in a grossly incorrect alignment relative to the distal phalanx , on landing.
Therefore the whole thing is rubbish IMO.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 01 Aug 2009 20:55 #5

calshoer wrote:
Unless the horse has just begun the "stumble and fall on his face "stage of the stride, they are showing the middle phalanx in a grossly incorrect alignment relative to the distal phalanx , on landing.
Therefore the whole thing is rubbish IMO.

The brown line is intended to represent load centers and show location of joints not anatomical parts. Dont view it as a representation of the actual bony column.
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 02 Aug 2009 00:27 #6

Some great videos on Youtube.

This one is cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=venukXZggzc&feature=related
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 02 Aug 2009 02:00 #7

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Phil..way cool video. :)
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 02 Aug 2009 17:02 #8

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tbloomer wrote:
I like it. Especially the changes in GRF at breakover. But it propably offends those who insist that the mechanical centers in the bones and joints move.

Not sure I understand your statement here. The GRF would diminish at breakover regardless where breakover is. Note the the DDF force increases at breakover as GRF decreases. Since we don't know how the hoof of this horse was configured (and most TWH have elongated breakovers), perhaps a more appropriate trim would reduce the DDF force at breakover which is the point of correct trim mechanics.
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 02 Aug 2009 19:02 #9

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Not sure I understand your statement here. The GRF would diminish at breakover regardless where breakover is. Note the the DDF force increases at breakover as GRF decreases. Since we don't know how the hoof of this horse was configured (and most TWH have elongated breakovers), perhaps a more appropriate trim would reduce the DDF force at breakover which is the point of correct trim mechanics.
What I aliked about was how the force vector and magnitued changes were illustrated. :rolleyes:
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 04 Aug 2009 22:02 #10

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tbloomer wrote:
What I aliked about was how the force vector and magnitued changes were illustrated. :rolleyes:

I did like how that was done. Gets you thinking how the forces interact and how they may vary as you vary the trim and shoe application.
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 04 Aug 2009 22:54 #11

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tbloomer wrote:
I like it. But it propably offends those who insist that the mechanical centers in the bones and joints move.

I haven't watched the video - Slow, Satelite Internet


Tom,

"Mechanical Centers" or Center of Rotations do move. Don't they? Nothing is ever static - we just talk about things as if they are for discussion purposes. The joints in horses are not fixed. They're seperated by fluid and articular cartilage.

Wish I could see the Video.
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 04 Aug 2009 23:02 #12

Andrew Grimm wrote:
I haven't watched the video - Slow, Satelite Internet


Tom,

"Mechanical Centers" or Center of Rotations do move. Don't they? Nothing is ever static - we just talk about things as if they are for discussion purposes. The joints in horses are not fixed. They're seperated by fluid and articular cartilage.

Wish I could see the Video.

Andrew,

You have raised a good point.

The anatomical "mechanical centers" do not move, the distance between the centers and/or bearing surface can.

Thanks, this gives me some food for thought.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 04 Aug 2009 23:30 #13

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Brian Purrington wrote:
Andrew,

You have raised a good point.

The anatomical "mechanical centers" do not move, the distance between the centers and/or bearing surface can.

Thanks, this gives me some food for thought.

Regards,

"Food for Thought" - Me too. Just read this a few days ago.

"There really is no such center, since joint surfaces roll and slide onto each other, so that there are a number of instantaneous centers of ratation, foming a locus of joint movement rather than a single axis or axle (Rooney)"
Andrew Grimm, CF, RJF
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 04 Aug 2009 23:34 #14

Andrew Grimm wrote:
"Food for Thought" - Me too. Just read this a few days ago.

"There really is no such center, since joint surfaces roll and slide onto each other, so that there are a number of instantaneous centers of ratation, foming a locus of joint movement rather than a single axis or axle (Rooney)"

Which Publication?
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Purchase, propulsion, push, pull, slide.... 05 Aug 2009 17:27 #15

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Andrew Grimm wrote:
I haven't watched the video - Slow, Satelite Internet


Tom,

"Mechanical Centers" or Center of Rotations do move. Don't they?
Does the center of an axle move or does the wheel and tire rotate around it? All forces passing through a wheel resolve at the center of rotation of the axle before being redirected to another part of the suspension. The axle in an A-arm suspension is cantilevered on yet another center where it articulates up and down on yet another mechanical center following the arc of the A-arm lever. The distance between these two "joints" is a straight line which never changes length regardless of how much air is in the tire or how much weight is in the vehicle.

In gliding joints with an eccentric radius of articulation then you can have a changing mechanical center. However, the DIJ and the PIJ are not eccentric gliding joints. The articular surface at the distal end of p2 is circular, not eccentric - so is the articular surface of the distal end of MC3. Note these centers are on the distal ends of the bones, NOT the proximal ends of the lower bones in the column. The centers of weight bearing forces are constant in the centers of circular bearing surfaces. Weight bearing forces come down from the horse.

The centers of ground reaction forces move up in reaction to "foot-print" location, impact, load, weight bearing compensation, etc. We have control over up ground reaction forces by trimming and shoe placement.

Newton and the dead greeks have control over the down weight bearing centers.

Our job is to get the right amount of air in the tire, put the right tread on the tire, balance the tire to minimize abnormal ground forces on the axle and suspension. If the mechanical weight bearing centers could move, then we would never have arguments about balance, because the horse would balance itslef by virtue of it's moving weight bearing centers' ability to compensate. There would also be no such thing as asymmetric remodeling of bones and joints. If the mechanical centers could move, then the bones and joints would remodel symmetrically.

Similar analogy - the ball and socket - the socket moves/compensates, distorts, but the ball is constant. Ball is weight bearing force, socket is ground reaction force. In regards to Rooney, I agree with him because the forces on the socket end are what we are dealing with. We're on the dirt side of the force. ;)

http://www.horseshoes.com/farrierssites/sites/rooney/basicmechanics1/basicmechanics1.htm
Footnote 2:
"2) There is no single center of rotation for any joint. One joint surface rolls on the other forming a locus of points of rotation With little loss of generality it is customary to use a single compromise center."

Explanation: The socket (distal end of the joint) compresses and distorts due to soft tissue, articular cartiledge, changes in joint spacing, etc. These ground reaction forces concentrate at various locations (locus points of rotation) on the radius of the circle of the distal end of P2 during various phases of weight bearing. In regards to vector diagrams and functional mechanics, the mechanical center of any system is that point where the sum of all force vectors converge. That is WHY it is customary to use a "single comprimize center" - as a summed vector of an infinite number of individual vectors. Sort of like a line is made up of an infinite number of points.

Clear as mud?
Tom Bloomer
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