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TOPIC: check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial

RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 18 Mar 2009 02:22 #31

  • Dan Puckett
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In school, we spent a full 2 weeks in the classroom covering anatomy, biomechanics, some physics, and some engineering. We also got lectured on conformation, and how it will affect foot growth and loading, wich will affect your trim and where you place the shoe.

I think without a strong basis in anatomy, one is running blind- kind of like driving a high performance vehicle without gauges to monitor the engine and drivetrain. You may do ok for a long time, and you may blow it up right off the start. If you dont know anatomy (or want to know it, at least), you shouldnt call yourself a farrier.

I havent heard of Dr Bowker, but Dr Strasser doesnt know her anatomy. If she does, she has no idea how it affects the foot and movement. I saw some pictures presented at a animal cruelty trial in Great Britain for one of her students. They were rightly convicted.

That said, there is no substitute for experience. Provided it's the right experience. Kind of like the old saying "Perfect practice makes perfect. Imperfect practice reinforces bad habits." The book learning and practical have to complement each other. I have had a lot more anatomy than some, but I dont think it's enough. If I dont use it, I'll lose it.

Jaosn Maki- I was thinking raise the heels (with a wedge or swelled heel shoe, not trim) when I read your original case presentation. All the things you listed lead me to believe there was a lot of stress on the DFT and the structures under it.

Dan
Dan Puckett, CF
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 18 Mar 2009 07:11 #32

Getting back to the question raised in the first post.

Professor Denoix documented that raising heels will ease strain of the distal sesmodian (navicular) bone, but will increase strain of the proximal sesmodian as is evident by the fetlock lowering deeper under load.

Lowering heels will increase strain in the distal sesmodian, but ease strain of the proximal sesmodian as is evident by the fetlock straightening when heels are lowered.

Professor Denoix, if I understand him correctly, claims that this has to do with the DFT pull increasing where heels are lowered and SFT pull decreasing or the other way around when heels are raised.

I made a point before about this. My problem here is that with a mid cannon tenotomy a foot will stay level on the ground, where a DFT severed at the navicular site (as you might witness after a long time with some neurectomy cases) will pop up the toe. Apparently there is a connection between DFT and SFT somewhere around the fetlock, by the late Dr. Rooney described as deep fascia. This connection must be pretty strong and in my opinion is enough to question the one on one relation between SFT and DFT as decribed (as I understand it) by Prof. Denoix. However the effect described by Denoix, raising heels will lower the fetlock, lowering heels will straighten it is evident. We get to see that every day.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 18 Mar 2009 11:56 #33

Ronald Aalders wrote:
I made a point before about this. My problem here is that with a mid cannon tenotomy a foot will stay level on the ground, where a DFT severed at the navicular site (as you might witness after a long time with some neurectomy cases) will pop up the toe. Apparently there is a connection between DFT and SFT somewhere around the fetlock, by the late Dr. Rooney described as deep fascia. This connection must be pretty strong and in my opinion is enough to question the one on one relation between SFT and DFT as decribed (as I understand it) by Prof. Denoix. However the effect described by Denoix, raising heels will lower the fetlock, lowering heels will straighten it is evident. We get to see that every day.


Ronald Aalders

Thanks Ronald, you explain things very well. Sign of a good teacher. Just to back up your comments.

I have attended two of Mitch Taylors lectures and leg dissection. I have seen exactly what you are talking about actually occur as the leg is dissected and loaded.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 19 Mar 2009 00:13 #34

  • Rick Talbert
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Ronald, what is your take on the pathology of the horse in the photos you posted? Superficial Flexor contraction?
Rick Talbert
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 19 Mar 2009 02:28 #35

rick,
my money would be "hell yes":D
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 19 Mar 2009 02:55 #36

  • Rick Talbert
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okay, i ask because i've had difficulty wrapping my head around these cases due to what ronald eluded to. We are dealing with SFT contracture and yet raising the heel INCREASES tension on the SFT, and SL, decreasing tension on the DFT, allowing the fetlock to descend as we see in the photo. But, if the condition was different, for example a DFT contraction, we would also typically raise the heel to DECREASE strain. It just seems odd to me, and I've done the same thing (wedging the heel in these SFT contracted cases) sometimes with fair results and sometimes seemingly contributing to fetlock instability. When this occurs I've managed by removing the wedge, but I've been tempted to put a reverse wedge pad on to see what would come of it. Any thoughts? On the same note, when dealing with bows of the SFT, why are we wedging heels?
Rick Talbert
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 19 Mar 2009 15:46 #37

Jason Maki wrote:
rick,
my money would be "hell yes":Jason


Wrong it's "heck yes" :D



Ronald Aalders
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 19 Mar 2009 15:58 #38

Rick Talbert wrote:
We are dealing with SFT contracture and yet raising the heel INCREASES tension on the SFT, and SL, decreasing tension on the DFT, allowing the fetlock to descend as we see in the photo.

I appreciate a lot of actions relating to DFT and SFT problems appear contradictory. In some cases they are contradictory. I must say that the relation between DFT and SFT in the equine digit is one of the most difficult problems I as a shoer have run into. The complications are increased by the apparent connection between the two as referred to above. Another reason this is so complicated is that when running in a soft footing it is in my opinion not unreasonable to predict that a low heel should have an effect on the navicular area, but actually has an effect on higher structures simply because in that soft footing a horse can jam it's foot in a desired (more or less comfortable) toe down/heel up position in the ground with the result that the inbalance between support lenght (as in too short) and break over length (as in too long) doesn't strain the Distal Inter Phalageal Joint, but the Proximal IPJ or even the fetlock. Placing a foot in sand toe down as a horse with a palmer hoof problem would do, and loading that foot big time, could well result in a bowed tendon, despite the fact the horse has low heels.

In our discussions we tend to forget that the actual angle we send horses off of the mats with don't mean squat when performing in a soft footing like my reiners do. The only thing that is there when a horse needs it is a break over length that matches the support length.

One reason of why sometimes wedges are used even when SFT appears contracted is that the HPA must be straight, with the COA at the center of the shoe. Period. Only in that situation the fragile balance of all structures can work together profiting from each other. When one of these structures is not in line the rest has to do way more than it's share. The total here greatly outweighs the sum of each individual structure added together.

If a foot with a broken back HPA has contracted SFT, it needs wedges the restore a straight HPA. In my opinion there is no way where creating an off balance is beneficial for any pathology.



Ronald Aalders

p.s. he don't lope too well. We tried aluminums but no soap.......
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 24 Mar 2009 01:27 #39

  • calshoer
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where a DFT severed at the navicular site (as you might witness after a long time with some neurectomy cases) will pop up the toe.
Heres one of those....apparently happened long ago and the poor horse was sold as a quiet child's mount because she would " only go as fast as a walk" .She is (thankfully) dead now.
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Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 24 Mar 2009 04:40 #40

Thanks Patty, I already stole that picture. ;) But if there anyone around with better quality pics and a rad of a similar situation, I'd really appreciate it!



Ronald Aalders
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 24 Mar 2009 09:33 #41

  • Jaye Perry
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Thanks Patty, I already stole that picture. ;) But if there anyone around with better quality pics and a rad of a similar situation, I'd really appreciate it!



Ronald Aalders


here's a couple from the same horse for ya::eek:




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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 24 Mar 2009 11:49 #42

  • irishcas
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Here you go.....
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Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 24 Mar 2009 18:50 #43

Great, thanks. Any chance on a accompanying pic of the foot?


Ronald Aalders
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 25 Mar 2009 13:26 #44

  • irishcas
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Ronald Aalders wrote:
Great, thanks. Any chance on a accompanying pic of the foot?


Ronald Aalders

Sorry Ron, I don't and the horse is dead.

Regards,
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 26 Mar 2009 20:36 #45

Thanks Kim, what's the story here anyway?

Ronald Aalders
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