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TOPIC: check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial

RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 07 Nov 2008 11:58 #16

Rick Talbert wrote:
A comprehensive understanding of anatomy and function should be a prerequisite to shoeing a horse! I heard a certain farrier school owner on TV say that at his school they did not really spend much time on anatomy and that the students could get all that sort of stuff on their own out of a book after they graduate. This statement made me sick to my stomach. Is it any mystery why 90% farrier school graduates don't make 5 years in the business? Most are woefully unprepared to shoe a horse from the start. This is directly related to anatomy. It is not enough to know HOW to do something, it is just as necessary to know WHY. Everything you do under a horse affects the horse one way or another. The only way we know whether or not we are helping and not hurting is our knowledge of functional anatomy. Every nip, every rasp stroke, every hammer blow we take (and just as importantly every one we refrain from taking) should be based on our knowledge of anatomy. Anyone who doesn't take anatomy seriously is someone not to be taken seriously as a professional.

Why would something as petty as this make you sick to your stomach. I can think of many things that would make me sick to my stomach, but I have to tell you not this. I suppose knowledge is power right? So if we have a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of anatomy that would seeem like a good deal right? Who's understanding of anatomy do we listen to? Not even the so called experts can agree on mechanics and how the anatomical parts work together under load and impact from the knee down. I know a little anatomy and biomechanics, enough to understand it to the point where it makes sense to me and I gain a better understanding with experience and time.

Gene Ovyneck and Doug Butler both have a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of anatomy and biomechanics. Dr. Bowker and Dr. Strasser both have a very comprehensive understanding of anatomy.

What say you now my friend. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 07 Nov 2008 12:30 #17

  • reillyshoe
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Rick Talbert wrote:
A comprehensive understanding of anatomy and function should be a prerequisite to shoeing a horse! I heard a certain farrier school owner on TV say that at his school they did not really spend much time on anatomy and that the students could get all that sort of stuff on their own out of a book after they graduate. This statement made me sick to my stomach. Is it any mystery why 90% farrier school graduates don't make 5 years in the business? Most are woefully unprepared to shoe a horse from the start. This is directly related to anatomy. It is not enough to know HOW to do something, it is just as necessary to know WHY. Everything you do under a horse affects the horse one way or another. The only way we know whether or not we are helping and not hurting is our knowledge of functional anatomy. Every nip, every rasp stroke, every hammer blow we take (and just as importantly every one we refrain from taking) should be based on our knowledge of anatomy. Anyone who doesn't take anatomy seriously is someone not to be taken seriously as a professional.


Great post Rick, I couldn't agree more. Recognizing lamness is not in our job description, and how could one even begin to address lameness without an understanding of the anatomical structures involved? Anyone farrier suggesting that understanding anatomy is unimportant is just looking to be argumentative....
P
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 07 Nov 2008 12:58 #18

  • Rick Burten
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Is knowledge of anatomy enough? What about knowledge about biomechanics, physics, geometry, conformation?

Not that I disagree with the concept about the importance of knowledge, but how do you explain the demonstrable success of farriers who have only rudimentary knowledge of these things? How do you explain the demonstrable failures of farriers who have a deep understanding of these concepts?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 07 Nov 2008 13:01 #19

reillyshoe wrote:
Great post Rick, I couldn't agree more. Recognizing lamness is not in our job description, and how could one even begin to address lameness without an understanding of the anatomical structures involved? Anyone farrier suggesting that understanding anatomy is unimportant is just looking to be argumentative....

I am looking to be argumentative, but in a good way, because I take this very seriously. :)

I am not suggesting that anatomy is unimportant, just pointing out that other parts of the job is just as important. Like I said, a farrier can spew anatomical terms all day, however this does not prove to me that farrier is a good farrier.

Recognizing lameness directly impacts our role as a farrier and we are part of the Vet and horseowner team. We can rule out a lot in the foot that can assist a Vet when it comes to diagnosing lameness. Nothing more frustrating to a Vet and owner than to find out the lameness is related to sore feet due to how the horse was trimmed and shod. Farriers should be able to use hoof testers, observe the horse at the walk, trot and canter and recognize what is normal and abnormal and if the cause is in the foot. Sometimes it is difficult to figure out which came first problems in the feet or elsewhere in the body due to secondary issues. Our job is to do the best we can with the foundation of the horse. Even in that area we as farriers do not agree as to what is proper trimming and shoeing.

It seems like the anatomy of just the hoof alone can be very controversial. I do not understand why it should be so complicated that a horse needs a healthy hoof to protect and support the anatomical structures in the hoof. However we continue to debate what is proper, barefoot only, natural balance and traditional farriery. What is proper breakover, what is balance, how much sole depth, how much heel, the purpose of the frog and bars. Is there a sole callous or not. Recognizing and dealing with distortion. Nailing on shoes vs. gluing on shoes. Frog support vs. no frog support.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 07 Nov 2008 19:39 #20

  • Ray_Knightley
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vthorseshoe wrote:
Phil without a knowledge of anatomy how would you begin to help a draft like this or how would you decide it is beyond help ?

my 2 cents worth

MAN OH MAN!!!! that reminds me of two heavys back in the beginging of the 90´s we went to a farm with lots of cows ,and at thet time people could get benifits for working with horses in the forests ,,,,they had two amimals a mare and her foal of 3 years they had never been used and kept like cows ....the mare was walking forward bent leg!!!! on her metercarpel joint ,the foal looked like this one ,,both had hooves ,well like exploded meatloaf!!! i was near sick!! ....we told them to put them down or we would call the police!!!and they would in our eyes never be able to keep animals again!!

what happend to the young animal ?

ray knightley.farrier.
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 12 Dec 2008 18:41 #21

If you don't understand how the horse is supost to move and why. Then how will the farrier understand if the problem is in the back, hip, sholder, hock, knee, ext..... All farriers must understand the baisics of how a horse moves and why. If a farrier can't understand it, they need a new line of work.
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 13 Dec 2008 00:44 #22

Phil,
How would you shoe a run forward, underun heeled, sheared heeled, extreme negative angle with marked subluxation , bipartite navicular/fractured shuttlebone, DFT lesion and recently nerved but still grade 2.5+ lame? Moreover where is the catch 22? What structure(s) could be utilized to at least make this horse comfortable and ambulatory? how do you get there without braking something else?( I cheated.. I did EXACTLY what I was told! lol)
It ALL ties in dude, from tip of the ear to the beaing surface of the hoof.
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 13 Dec 2008 08:59 #23

vthorseshoe wrote:
Would someone explain how raising or lowering and angle would have positive or negative effects on the above ligaments...

I think the topic of anatomy is and SHOULD be one of the most important sections on this board for all farriers so lets get it going ...

I would really like to see others post problems they have encountered or questions they have concerning ANATOMY..

How do the tendons or ligaments affect the actions of movement or lock up legs such as in the stifle or how and why does cutting a tendon help or hinder an animal in the short and long run...

Are we only concerned as shoers with the Anatomy below the knee or is it imperative to have a good working knowledge of the Horses Anatomy for the overall skeleton...

TO LET THIS SECTION GO UNUSED is a HUGE LOSS of information/knowledge that is needed in every persons everyday work.

my 2 cents worth ;)


There is a lot on this board on this specific subject Bruce. Check out these links. And these are only my contributions that I coul find. Others have posted as well.

You are supposed to actualy read all postings! ;)

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8038&highlight=denoix&page=7

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5125&highlight=denoix

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4886&highlight=denoix

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4551&highlight=denoix

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2759&highlight=denoix


Ronald Aalders
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 13 Dec 2008 12:34 #24

  • Mike Ferrara
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vthorseshoe wrote:
Phil without a knowledge of anatomy how would you begin to help a draft like this or how would you decide it is beyond help ?

my 2 cents worth

Start by cutting off all that extra foot. Over the years, I've been called to trim many ponies and donkeys that were that bad and a lot worse. It's a lot harder on my back than on my brain.
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 13 Dec 2008 13:05 #25

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jason Maki wrote:
Phil,
How would you shoe a run forward, underun heeled, sheared heeled, extreme negative angle with marked subluxation , bipartite navicular/fractured shuttlebone, DFT lesion and recently nerved but still grade 2.5+ lame? Moreover where is the catch 22? What structure(s) could be utilized to at least make this horse comfortable and ambulatory? how do you get there without braking something else?( I cheated.. I did EXACTLY what I was told! lol)
It ALL ties in dude, from tip of the ear to the beaing surface of the hoof.
Jason

I've never had a case like that. If I did, there might be a clinic or at least a vet to help me out too but lets look at it anyway.

Regarding the sheared underun heel and negative P3, one would be inclined to lop off some of that bent heel horn, maybe float the sheared heel and put some of the load on the frog and maybe wedge.

Might the busted navicular bone contraindicate loading the frog?

By "DFT lesion" do you mean DDFT?

ok, what did you do and did it work?
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 13 Dec 2008 13:25 #26

Very good Mike. Yes DDFT, I jsut got lazy with the "D".

We trimmed the foot back, I popped out two retained soles, BTW and trimmed around the toe to the "live" plane. We let the shear settle about three times and drug the heels as far back as they would go. Dressed the foot. I then took a classic roller and made an "NB" shoe and affixed a #3 bar wedge with the frog pressure ground out. I'll usually find a "safe" place on the most caudal aspect of PIII (even in a bipartite) to load, but this guy was nerved so there was NO WAY to judge. Without his input any frog pressure was way to risky. But I've never had a negative angle correct without frog contact.
We x rayed him the next day, and though the foot looked better, as I suspected he was still very negative. So the senior clinician started adding redden ultimate wedges until he dropped down into the suspensory ligament and unloaded the dft. The joint realigned and PIII looked much better in its orientation. He strutted out, no discernable lameness at the walk, in a three degre wedge pad/half oval NB type shoe and a Redden Ultimate. about twelve to fourteen degrees of wedging and big time break over.
The Ultimate coupled with the #3 bar wedge essentially made a rest shoe and flexed the fetlock enough to off load the DDFT and transfer the weight to the suspensory apparatus, negating the need for frog pressure.
Honestly, I felt like a high school drop out at Harvard Law: I had no idea of how to realign the joint without frog pressure. The ultimates and the senoir clinician saved the day.
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 13 Dec 2008 13:50 #27

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jason Maki wrote:
Honestly, I felt like a high school drop out at Harvard Law: I had no idea of how to realign the joint without frog pressure. The ultimates and the senoir clinician saved the day.
Jason

It's new to me so I learned something too.

Were radiographs key in knowing there was false sole? I have a few horses that I suspect I could go digging in but there is no visual indication and it isn't giving on it's own...ie flat sole, smooth transition between frog and sole ect. Without knowing for certain there's sole depth there, I stop.

Advice?
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 13 Dec 2008 14:04 #28

The xrays helped, but the first one popped out with the hoof pick. I usually trust the apex of the true frog and the whiteline/sole junction. when they look clean and "right" I stop. this horse was also a paint, who in my experience seem very prone to retained soles. even after trimming, the depth appeared to long under the tip of PIII, but I'm of the opinion that was a process of the negative angle and not long footedness. I'd just trust your markers. Sometimes I'll trim to what looks right and wait. This sometimes allows the extra sole to loosen and seperate enough that what can safeley be removed becomes more evident.
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 21 Dec 2008 15:58 #29

Jason Maki wrote:
Very good Mike. Yes DDFT, I jsut got lazy with the "D".

Jason


Dr. Rooney reminded me once there is no reason at all to abbreviate deep digital flexor tendon by using DDFT. DT suffices to distinguish that tendon from the other one, the ST ::cool:


Ronald Aalders
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RE:check ligaments/extensor,DDF and superficial 30 Dec 2008 21:16 #30

Jason Maki wrote:
The xrays helped, but the first one popped out with the hoof pick. I usually trust the apex of the true frog and the whiteline/sole junction. when they look clean and "right" I stop. this horse was also a paint, who in my experience seem very prone to retained soles. even after trimming, the depth appeared to long under the tip of PIII, but I'm of the opinion that was a process of the negative angle and not long footedness. I'd just trust your markers. Sometimes I'll trim to what looks right and wait. This sometimes allows the extra sole to loosen and seperate enough that what can safeley be removed becomes more evident.
Jason

This is the common sense I am talking about. ;)
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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