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TOPIC: Iraq discussion

RE:Iraq discussion 19 Mar 2008 04:38 #91

  • SlowShoe
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HoustonFarrier wrote:
Just like that hoky-pokey that we created more terrorists.

Its not hokey-poky, it's a foreign policy that promotes violence and has no respect for people, their lives, culture or sovereignty.

HoustonFarrier wrote:
I have a news flash for you......I was in that neck of the woods way back in the late 70's...they already hated us back then

Whats your point? This country (and other countries) have been meddling in there affairs since any of us were born > See the previous response.
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RE:Iraq discussion 19 Mar 2008 10:26 #92

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SlowShoe wrote:
My point:When you start killing a lot of people, destroying lives, cultures and countries these individuals have families, friends and people from similar backgrounds who are enraged at the source of such things. It turns out thats exactly who the next 'terrorist' will be. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is going to be some sort of blowback for the decades of such meddling.

AmericanProgress.org......George Soros backed entity...think they aren't going to be partisan in their views?? Surely you are smarter than that? They believe that talk radio should be banned.....real american values there!@

MotherJones.com - Yikes...can you say LIBERAL :eek:

From their own website......
MotherJones.com
Investigative journalism, photo essays, and social commentary from a left-of-center perspective


Why don't you quote any right-of-center websites????


Why didn't the entire German nation wipe us out then...we almost bombed them back to the stone ages...we wpied out generations of Germans.

Why didn't the Japanese nation comes across the ocean in waves and terrorize us??? We killed more janapeses in 20 minutes than anyone else in the history of the world?

Stop reading all the liberal hogwash propaganda, and go visit a military hospital, and talk to the people who know the REAL answers....you might be in for a surprise.

The middle east is rife with uneducated people who have nothing in their lives, so fighting is all they know. They were doing it to each other long before we ever got there. And, by the way, the foreign policy that we have is done by elected officials the YOU helped elect. George Bush's administration is chock full of leftover Democrats from the cigar man......when he tried to get rid of them, they raised a big stink about it.

I'm not a big fan of this war...we should not be there...but...since we are there, we should bomb them back to the stone ages, turn afghanistan into a glass skating rink and get out. Let them start all over again with freely elected officials, instead of dictator thugs, and see if they can make a good life for themselves.

Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Iraq discussion 20 Mar 2008 05:55 #93

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Chuck Presnail in grayj, deletia

You have said that Clinton only attacked Iraq beacuse he wanted to protact aircraft . You have said so in many posts. read below.

Here is the transcript of Pres Clintons address to america on the day he attacked Iraq...


You're right about Clinton's four days of air attacks on Iraqi targets other than AA installations, dead wrong in your inference that Clinton attacked on a unilateral basis as you imply. In reality, Clinton attacked Iraqi targets with unanimous approval of the UN Security Council; in contrast, Bush attacked Iraq without UN approval, while claiming he was not acting unilaterally.

Put another way, Clinton didn't necessarily lie about his reasons for bombing Iraqi targets - although the cynic in me thinks impeachment proceedings certainly had something to do with the timing - while Bush indisputably lied about his reasons for attacking Iraq.

Clinton lies were exposed by a soiled blue dress; Bush lies have resulted in nearly 4,000 body bags.

MR. Stovall

I am confused - no on second thought you would use that against me so I'm not confused.

You say /said and continue to say "Bush Lied" But the evidence you give says otherwise. First you Quote MR. Ritter as your authority .

But he says that in the execution of his duties to find and destroy Necular and other weapons of Mass destruction he only found 90% Mr.Ritter through this statement declares that there werte WMD's he did not find or destroy.

But you gloss over the fact that your witness is saying that Bush did not lie

Bush said there were WMD's and your witness agreed. Actually it was the other way round. The on site expert said there were WMD's


But then WE find that Pres Clinton Also claims that there WMD's draws Briton in and attaks Iraq fully 2+ years before Bush Takes office.

His reason I repeet ;

" Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons."

You gloss over that by saying "Clinton didn't necessarily lie about his reasons for bombing Iraqi targets -...."

What do you mean by that? Necessarily ?

If he lied, then He has to join Bush in your Hate list. If he did not lie then you have to erase Bush from the list .


So for there to be no WMD's we have to believe that MR. RItter lied
Pres Clinton Lied and Pres Bush Lied.

Hey it's 2008 you can hate whomever you wish .

Chuck Presnail
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RE:Iraq discussion 20 Mar 2008 06:08 #94

SlowShoe wrote:
Its not hokey-poky, it's a foreign policy that promotes violence and has no respect for people, their lives, culture or sovereignty.



Whats your point? This country (and other countries) have been meddling in there affairs since any of us were born > See the previous response.

MR. Slow or should I be formal and include your last name :Shoe

anyway
a Brief history on the militant acts of Islam which has taken place for a VERY long time. They are/were not just peaceful goat herders.
SEE:



A CONCISE HISTORY OF ISLAM
AND ITS EXPANSION IN THE KNOWN WORLD


ANNO DOMINI 613 Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to accept Islam.
624 Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Jews from Madina.
627 Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of the Jews at Banu Quraiza.
630 Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
634 Muslim armies stormed out of the Arabian Peninsula and began
their conquests.
635 Siege and conquest of Damascus.
638 Christian Jerusalem and Syria conquered by Muslim armies.
641 Muslims conquer Persia.
642 Conquest of Egypt from the Christians, followed by the rest of
North Africa.
647 Conquest of the Island of Cyress.
648 Campaigns against the Christian Byzantium. The armies of islam
launch a series of attacks against the Christians in the east that
culminate in the seige of its capitol Constaninople in 673.
651 Naval battle against the Byzantines.
666 Raid of Sicily.
672 Conquest of the island of Rhodes.
673 Siege of Constantinople. Muslim armies lay seige to the Byzantine
Christian capitol, Constantinople. The seige lasts for five years,
until the final capture of the city in 678.
688 Construction begins on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.
711 Conquest of Spain begins.
716 Invasion of Constaninople.
725 Muslims occupy Nimes in France.
732 The Battle of Poitiers in France. Charles Martel halts the advance
of Muslims into Central Europe in this decisive battle.
737 The Muslims are defeated in Avignon, France.
756 Founding of the Umayyad State in Spain.
777 Battle of Saragossa in Spain.
792 Invasion of Southern France.
805 Campaigns against the Byzantines. Recapture of Rhodes and Cypress.
818 Capture of the islands of Izira, Majorica, and Sardinia.
831 Muslims capture Polermo, Italy.
839 Muslims occupy all of southern Italy. Capture of the city of Messina
in Sicily. This is the main assault on Europe before the First Crusades.
Th goal of Islam appeared to be the destruction of Christianity, hence
its thrust to attack the heart of Christendom, the Papal Seat in Rome.
846 Rome is attacked. The sack of Rome by the Muslims transcended in
intensity and horror of human carnage any that had occurred in the
past. The Basilicas of St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the surrounding
buildings, are razed. Thousands of priests, nuns, and innocents are
slaughtered. Although the city of Rome was not destroyed, the attack
focused on the sacred center of Christendom, in the hope of annihilating
the Christian faith.
909 Sicily and Sardinia fall to the Muslims.
937 The Church of the Resurrection (Church of the Holy Sepulcher) is
burned down by Muslims. Many more churches in Jerusalem are
attacked and burned.
966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem.
970 Muslim Fatamids invade Palestine and destroy it through a century
of war, which devastated the Jewish population.
973 The Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is burned to the
ground by Muslims.
1003 Al-Hakim begins his persecutions by destroying the Church of
St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt. He continues his persecutions by destroying
the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem in 1009. And later in
1012, he issues many oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians.
1019 Conquest of the Punjab.
1054 Schism between the Eastern and Western Christian Churches.
1071 Believing the Eastern Church to be weak after the Schism, the Turks
attack Byzantium. Muslims eventually defeat the Christian army of the
Byzantine Empire at the Battle of Manzikert, Turkey. The Muslims
continue on to invade and conquer Palestine.
1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks.
1076 Conquest of western Ghana.
1082 Conquest of Algeria by the Al Moravids.
1085 Toledo is retaken by Christian forces.
1091 Normans recapture the island of Sicily, end of Muslim rule.
1093 Henry of Burgundy comes to the aid of Castille, Spain, when it is
invaded by Muslims.
1094 Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom
for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory, triggering the
First Crusade.
1095 Pope Urban II preaches the The First Crusade to defend the eastern
Christians at the Council of Claremont.
1099 The Christian Crusaders recapture Jerusalem.
1118 Saragossa, Spain is recaptured by Christians.
1119 The Order of the Knights Templar is founded to protect pilgrims in
the Holy Land.
1147 Second Crusade.
1181 Saladin becomes Sultan of Egypt. He is a brilliant military commander
who unites the Muslim armies.
1187 Muslims recapture Jerusalem, triggering the Third Crusade.
1189 The Third Crusade.
1194 Capture and occupation of Delhi by Muslims.
1199 Conquests of Northern India and Bengal.
1204 The Fourth Crusade.
1212 Muslims suffer defeat by the Christians in Spain at the Al-Uqba. The
Christians continue their recapture of Spain
1217 The Fifth Crusade.
1228 The Sixth Crusade.
1229 Jerusalem falls back under Christian control.
1245 Muslims recapture Jerusalem.
1248 The Seventh Crusade.
1266 The Eighth Crusade.
1274 Ninth Crusade under Edward I of England.
1291 The Muslims conquer the city of Acre, the last Christian stronghold
in the Holy Lands. This is seen as the end of the Crusades. The
Templars move their headqaurters from Acre to Cypress, and the
Teutonic Knights move their headquarters from Acre to Venice. The
Muslims expel the Crusaders from the Middle East.
1299 Ottoman Empire founded in Turkey.
1327 Ottoman Turks capture the city of Nicaea.
1361 Ottoman Turks conquer part of Thrace and establish a capitol there.
1365 The Turks defeat the Christians at the battle of Matiza, the Byzantine
ruler becomes a vassal of the Turks.
1347 The Black Plague kills 25 million people over the course of four years.
1371 Invasion and conquest of Bulgaria.
1404 Ottoman Turks annex Hungary.
1456 Ottomans capture Athens.
1473 Conquest of Persia by the Ottoman Empire.
1475 Ottomans annex the Crimea, and go to war against Venice.
1476 Turkey becomes the master of the Aegean Sea, and the Ottomans
dominate the Mediterranean Sea for almost a century.
1478 Ottomans conquer Albania.
1492 Muslims driven out of their last stronghold in Granada, Spain.
Reconquest of Spain by the Christians is complete.
1517 Ottomans conquer Egypt and rule Arabia.
1521 Mulsim Turks invade Hungary.
1526 Suleiman the Magnificaent orders the complete destruction of the
Hungarian Kingdom after the Battle of Mohacs.
1528 Conquest of Budapest in Hungary.
1529 Turks lay siege to Vienna in Austria.
1541 Ottoman Turks annex Hungary.
1550 Conquest of Java, the Moluccas, and Borneo.
1560 Ottoman Turks destroy the Spanish fleet.
1571 The Ottomans are defeated in the naval Battle of Lepanto by the
Spanish and Italian fleets, and their domination of the Mediterranean
is brought to a close.
1578 King Sebastian of Portugal is killed in the Battle of the Three
Kings in Morocco.
1683 The Battle of Vienna. The Battle of Vienna might be signaled as the battle
that finally stemmed the previously-unstoppable Turkish forces and
represented the ****hest Westward advance into Central Europe of the
Ottoman Empire.
1711 Ottoman Empire goes to war with Russia, who is defeated in the
Battle of Pruth.
1718 The Turks once again wage war against Austria. When they lose, they
relinquish control of Hungary.
1828 Russia declares war on Ottoman Turkey.
1830 The French recapture Algeria, ending 313 years of Muslim occupation.
1857 The British capture Delhi and end Mughal rule. This was the end of
1000 years of Muslim rule in India.
1878 Britian wrests control of Cypress from the Turks.
1879 Treaty of Berlin, where the Ottomans gave up four-fifths of the
conquests in Europe.
1882 Egypt comes under British military occupation.
1901 French forces occupy Morocco.
1914 World War I begins, Ottoman Turks align with Germany.
1916 Arabs revolt against Ottoman Caliphate.
1918 Armistace signed with Ottomans on October 11. World War I ends.
1924 The Turkish Caliphate is abolished.

IF you have read this far you can see that Islam has and continues to try and spread Its beliefs thrueout the world by force.

Chuck Presnail

PS for giggles you should look up the connections between Iraq and Nazi Germany.
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RE:Iraq discussion 20 Mar 2008 06:53 #95

I am with you Chuck, after one cuts through all of the b-s , the facts remain. Same struggle , different time, I know what side i'm on! Jake
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RE:Iraq discussion 20 Mar 2008 11:53 #96

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Chuck Presnail in gray, deletia

You say /said and continue to say "Bush Lied" But the evidence you give says otherwise.

Do tell? Let's review the bidding:

Saddam said he didn't have any WMDs.

Bush said he did.

Bush told America that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in 2003 that posed a threat to the United States and invaded Iraq on that basis.

Five years after Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq, no WMDs have been found.

No evidence of WMD manufacturing capability has been found.

No evidence suggesting the Iraqi transport of WMDs to another country has been found.

You can spin it like Karl Rove, digress needlessly, and obfuscate endlessly - but when it all shakes out, Bush lied. Bush's lies have killed nearly 4,000 American soldiers, an estimated 100,000 Iraqis, and cost America between 600 billion and a trillion dollars.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Iraq discussion 20 Mar 2008 23:38 #97

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Chuck: Whats your point? I could come up with a list jsut as large if not bigger about Christians, Jews and the like.

Bottom line is that in the present day here in the U.S. our foriegn policy is responsible for what happened on 9/11 and is the reason that our nation is at a greater risk than ever before of terrorist threats.

Don't go preaching to me that terrorists attack the US because they hate our freedom and lifestyle. It's like a big bucket of bull@#$%. I smell it and I see it. So can most everyone else. Some choose to drink it anyway.
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 01:05 #98

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SlowShoe wrote:
It's like a big bucket of bull@#$%. I smell it and I see it. So can most everyone else. Some choose to drink it anyway.

You've never been out of the US have you ???? It's been my experience that people who hate the US as much as you do, have never been outside the country, and actually SEEN and interacted with another country.

I have. I've been all over the world, I served this GREAT country for 12 years....we have the greatest country in the world, and I can assure you that most people who hate us, hate us BECAUSE of our freedoms and lifestyles.

Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 01:43 #99

SlowShoe;100867 wrote:
Chuck: Whats your point? I could come up with a list jsut as large if not bigger about Christians, Jews and the like.

Bottom line is that in the present day here in the U.S. our foreign policy is responsible for what happened on 9/11 and is the reason that our nation is at a greater risk than ever before of terrorist threats.

Don't go preaching to me that terrorists attack the US because they hate our freedom and lifestyle. It's like a big bucket of bull@#$%. I smell it and I see it. So can most everyone else. Some choose to drink it anyway.


ME:

OK just what foreign policy would drive 17 Saudis to come here and kill us?
ARE;
The acts of the US so dramatic that when Muslims blow up people in sweden they do so because they hate US? when they blow up people in the Philippines it's because of us, when they burn down neighborhoods in France it's because of us? when they Bomb trains in Spain it's because of us, now that they have declared to kill all the newspaper people in Denmark it's because of us? OR do they do so because Each of those Countries has an equally oppressive foreign policy ?

NO it's because they are Violent people - Name ONE christian , Jew, Budest, Tahoest that has strapped a bomb to their child and sent them into a building filled with Muslims and others just to Kill?

wake up! Islam has an agenda if we/you do not see it we are truly in trouble.


I have read your posts and I have no expectations that I can change your mind but if left un answered......

Good luck with your life.

Chuck
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 02:03 #100

  • Gary_Miller
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HoustonFarrier wrote:
I have. I've been all over the world, I served this GREAT country for 12 years....we have the greatest country in the world, and I can assure you that most people who hate us, hate us BECAUSE of our freedoms and lifestyles.
I will second that. Been there done/seen that a got the merit badge.

Korea
Egypt
Saudi Arabia
Quatar

We have things that these people can only dream about due to thier society. Those in power/those who want the power, do their best to keep the western influance out of their society. Because if thier people learned about freedoms and had a chance to experiance it there would be a revolution. So instead the control radio, telivision, education, ect.. All so they can spread their propaganda and stay in power.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 05:53 #101

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HoustonFarrier wrote:
It's been my experience that people who hate the US as much as you do, have never been outside the country

I say these things because it is the truth. And I love and care deeply about this country. I care that all of this hatred, and the lies spewed by this dysfunctional administrations are destroying and degrading this country. This war that kills so many innocent people is inciting more and more Jihadist who would like nothing more than to kill Americans because of our occupation of their holy lands.
we have the greatest country in the world
In my opinion you are correct sir.
I can assure you that most people who hate us, hate us BECAUSE of our freedoms and lifestyles.

I'm sorry, and really dont want to get personal with anyone on the subject as I respect folks who do good work (from everything you've posted on this site you do great work) but It really hurts my head to understand how anyone can possibly buy that BS.

I guarantee you when the next terrorist attack hits our shores and the responsible makes its claim it wont be because "You Americans go to strip bars and watch family guy!"

Not one single terrorist or terrorist organization has ever said that they did such and such an act because of our lifestyles and/or freedoms.

Do some reading, why dont you start with the official 9/11 commission report where it explains the motives behind 9/11. Hustler and Gay Bars weren't mentioned, but you sure as hell can bet that the fact that we set up bases in their holy lands, have been interfering with Iran since 1953 (our cia overthrew their government) and we had been bombing Iraq for 10 god damn years among several things is on the list.

When we ( along w/ France and Israel) pulled out of Lebanon in 1983, suicide terrorism stopped pretty much immediately. We took away their incentive to do such things.
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 06:09 #102

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Chuck Presnail wrote:
OK just what foreign policy would drive 17 Saudis to come here and kill us?

Imaging if China had toppled American leaders that were democratically elected, installed leaders with China's agenda's in mind, Repeatedly bombed and targeted the info structure. Killed thousands of American civilians woman and children. Set up tons of basses on American land, and kept a heav military presence in the US.

How would you feel? What would you want to do?

The acts of the US so dramatic that when Muslims blow up people in sweden they do so because they hate US? when they blow up people in the Philippines it's because of us, when they burn down neighborhoods in France it's because of us? when they Bomb trains in Spain it's because of us, now that they have declared to kill all the newspaper people in Denmark it's because of us?

I have not educated myself on the affairs of these countries, and I can see neither have you. But I can say that western countries have had a big part in tearing up the Mideast for a very long time.
NO it's because they are Violent people

I assure you the death toll from the religions that Islam is so very closely tied too (Christianity and Judaism) is much higher.
Name ONE christian , Jew, Budest, Tahoest that has strapped a bomb to their child and sent them into a building filled with Muslims and others just to Kill?

Name one Muslim who has.

wake up! Islam has an agenda if we/you do not see it we are truly in trouble.

So Christianity is not an agenda? Judaism is not? Dont be so naive.

I have read your posts and I have no expectations that I can change your mind but if left un answered.

You cant change facts, but you can take a look for yourself and see what kind of individual you are. One who thinks its OK to kill another to get what you want, or one who thinks that is wrong.
Good luck with your life.

Regardless of ones social or political views, we could all use a little luck. I wish you the best as well.

Josh
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 07:44 #103

Slow Shoe wrote:
Name one Muslim who has. ( put bombs on children)


ME:
Ok

Mohammad Hossein Fahmideh a 13 year old ; and I will allow that his parents did not strap on the bombs but his government allowed him to do it.

and below terrorists strapped on the bombs to this mentally ill 19 year old

http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Saddam/Handicapped-boy-made-into-bomb/2005/02/01/1107228705132.html

this year two Down syndrome women blew / or were blown up killing nothing but Muslims .

this is not something I can understand or will.

Chuck
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 08:28 #104

I agree that these religous fanatics are ruthless but they're the minority. You hear of a select group of militants fighting their "jihad" but they're constantly in the media because for lack of another term they like to blow $#!t up. Islam is the fastest growing religoin in the world. These militant groups are lead by wackos who brainwash people in the name of their religion. I feel if the US withdraws from Iraq there will be a power vaccum and these fanatics will gain control. Though I feel that the US should have stayed out of Iraq there is no turning back or the 4,000 american lives lost will be in vain.


Just my opinion,
Kurtis Coty
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RE:Iraq discussion 21 Mar 2008 14:54 #105

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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cotyqtrhorses in gray

I agree that these religous fanatics are ruthless but they're the minority.


It's not politically correct to mention this, but Islam, not a few fanatics, is the enemy.

You hear of a select group of militants fighting their "jihad" but they're constantly in the media because for lack of another term they like to blow $#!t up.

When a few Muslims blow stuff up, the whole of Islam countenances their actions. Have you ever heard any of the so called "moderate" Muslims, much less any Muslim clergy, condemning Muslim suicide bombers? Speaking out against the 9/11 atrocity?

Islam is the fastest growing religoin in the world. These militant groups are lead by wackos who brainwash people in the name of their religion.

Islam is the only religion/superstition currently being spread by the sword and it has a long, unbroken, history of being spread in that manner.

I feel if the US withdraws from Iraq there will be a power vaccum and these fanatics will gain control.

Too late! When Saddam was toppled, a power vaccuum was immediately created and the fanatics are already in control. Does anybody remember what happened in Yugoslavia when Tito died?

Though I feel that the US should have stayed out of Iraq there is no turning back or the 4,000 american lives lost will be in vain.

Nearly 4,000 American lives have already been wasted in Iraq. How about either getting the hell out - or recognizing that Islam is the real enemy and acting in our interest instead of pandering to our "friends" in the surrounding countries?
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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