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TOPIC: Iraq discussion

RE:Iraq discussion 02 Mar 2008 17:27 #61

  • Bill Adams
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George Geist wrote:
Before throwing the gauntlet down to Mr Stovall I'll just warn you not to bring a knife to a gunfight. George

Hey George,
ever notice how I tread lighty around dissagrements with Mr. Stovall?

As to elections, Sadam had no opposing canadates and the Supreme Court didn't install bush. They just held up federal law against Gore's lawsuit to change the election rules after the fact.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Iraq discussion 02 Mar 2008 17:48 #62

  • George Geist
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Bill Adams wrote:
Hey George,
ever notice how I tread lighty around dissagrements with Mr. Stovall?
Yeah and I don't recall you're ever having been deletia'd:)
As to elections, Sadam had no opposing canadates and the Supreme Court didn't install bush. They just held up federal law against Gore's lawsuit to change the election rules after the fact.
Is all relative. He was the Baath party candidiate. In this country for the most part only the Republicrat candidate will get in. Our election system is in a shambles. Historically among the worst in the world.

This link is 4 years old now but still valid http://whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.html

If elections are ever going to be on the up and up in this country it is essential that old style paper ballots are returned to.
George
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RE:Iraq discussion 02 Mar 2008 18:11 #63

  • brian robertson
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Reference note:

Sadam was installed in the leadership position, by the USA (CIA) after the coup that overthrew the elected govt. He was our creation, for better or worse.

The Shah was put in the leadership position of Iran, by the USA(CIA), after the coup that overthrew the elected govt.

The Saudi monarchy was installed by the USA.

Iraq received satelite intelligence, weapons and munitions from the USA during the 8 years of the Iran/Iraq war.

Conjecture: There's a possibility those WMD's used were "Made in America" or with American tech support.

Do you see a pattern here?

Do you have a clue as to why those folks might say, "Death to America"?

Clue: It's not that they hate us for: freedom, democracy, and apple pie...

Clue: They tried democracy, we just didn't like the result, so we tossed it, put in the monarch, shah and dictator we liked better...
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RE:Iraq discussion 02 Mar 2008 18:53 #64

  • George Geist
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brian robertson wrote:
Reference note:

Sadam was installed in the leadership position, by the USA (CIA) after the coup that overthrew the elected govt. He was our creation, for better or worse.

The Shah was put in the leadership position of Iran, by the USA(CIA), after the coup that overthrew the elected govt.

The Saudi monarchy was installed by the USA.

Iraq received satelite intelligence, weapons and munitions from the USA during the 8 years of the Iran/Iraq war.

Conjecture: There's a possibility those WMD's used were "Made in America" or with American tech support.

Do you see a pattern here?

Do you have a clue as to why those folks might say, "Death to America"?

Clue: It's not that they hate us for: freedom, democracy, and apple pie...

Clue: They tried democracy, we just didn't like the result, so we tossed it, put in the monarch, shah and dictator we liked better...
True on all counts, Hussein on the other hand was re-elected over and over after that though. Was also 1st cousin to King Hussein of Jordan who was a US friend. Who's daughter Princess Haya is married to Sheik Mohammed Bin Rashid al Makhtoum of Dubai a very good friend to US and all horse people.

Hmmmm, all these guys are related:eek: Small world at the top.

Here's one to annoy the Bush groupies:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_p99G04hfU
George
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RE:Iraq discussion 03 Mar 2008 03:58 #65

  • beslagsmed
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
beslagsmed in gray, deletia

First of all I saw first hand what Sadam did to his people, the way he lived and the way his people lived. What he did to his people when they posed a threat to his power base. I am glad we got rid of him and would gladly do it over again if necessary.

Would you?

Under Saddam, Iraqis had no personal or political freedom; secular, not religious, law; virtually no crime; the highest per capita income and highest literacy rate in the Middle East; no terrorist ties, poor medical care and poor basic services.

Since the Bush invasion, Iraqis have political freedom - but civil war; are rapidly becoming an Islamic state ruled by various sects - with sectarian violence commonplace; religious law, rampant crime, a brain drain of professionals, a lowered literacy rate, and even worse medical care and basic services than before the invasion.

Most importantly, since Bush invaded Iraq, nearly 4,000 American and 90,000 Iraqis have died.

For what?

While Sadam was funneling money from the Oil for Food program to his palaces, his people were doing without. The palace complex we were at in Baghdad was built after Gulf War I. He had over 70 palace complexes in Iraq, money which could have been used for the betterment of his people. Did you see the mass graves which were filled with people who disagreed with Sadam? How about the rooms he had "little personal talks" with whips, chains and all kinds of things you can't think of? Right, there was no civil strife because he had the power of the military to come in and put down (fill mass graves).

Any where in my post did I say Bush acted correctly? Do I think it is right to invade another country as we did - no. One think we will never be able to do is establish a western type of government in the middle east. This is not possible.

The other thing is the people must want to do something for themselves. The worst thing is they have lived in the shadow of Sadam for so long, it is hard for many to stand up for themselves. This is the reason so few can have such a great effect. If the people would stand up for themselves and fight what is going on, things would be different, but again culture, tribal ways, religion, past history all take an effect.

I was in Bosnia/Croatia in Dec 95, right after the Dayton Accords were signed. I have seen first hand what the Serbs, Croatians, Muslims did to each other. At first NATO had a mandate for only 1 year. After I was there for only a month I told one of my squad guys we would be lucky if NATO got out after 10yrs. The U.S. finally got out of NATO after 10yrs! And guess what - the UN was in Bosnia before NATO and scewed thing up royal. As far as a military farce (yes spelled correctly) the UN sucks big time. If the UN had done it correctly I would have never been in Bosnia, but they didn't. I don't have much respect for the UN chain of command. They will put a military mission on the ground, but never give the Commander on site the authority he needs to do the job. Until they get their heads out of their sitting spot, well nuff said.

The other thing is the media only tells you what they want you to hear and see. Talk to any vet who was there, they will tell you this. Unless you have been there you will never really know. Until you see you will never really understand. Those of you who have been there - am I right???
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:Iraq discussion 03 Mar 2008 19:59 #66

  • George Geist
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beslagsmed wrote:
While Sadam was funneling money from the Oil for Food program to his palaces, his people were doing without. The palace complex we were at in Baghdad was built after Gulf War I. He had over 70 palace complexes in Iraq, money which could have been used for the betterment of his people. Did you see the mass graves which were filled with people who disagreed with Sadam? How about the rooms he had "little personal talks" with whips, chains and all kinds of things you can't think of? Right, there was no civil strife because he had the power of the military to come in and put down (fill mass graves).
Same can be said of countless American allies around the world. Seems being anti-communist historically got them a free pass to do anything they wanted.
Any where in my post did I say Bush acted correctly? Do I think it is right to invade another country as we did - no. One think we will never be able to do is establish a western type of government in the middle east. This is not possible.
Agreed
The other thing is the people must want to do something for themselves. The worst thing is they have lived in the shadow of Sadam for so long, it is hard for many to stand up for themselves. This is the reason so few can have such a great effect. If the people would stand up for themselves and fight what is going on, things would be different, but again culture, tribal ways, religion, past history all take an effect.
Very true but we can't be concerned about it. Mission was to get Saddam Hussein. When that was done there was no more reason to be there and should have left that day.
I was in Bosnia/Croatia in Dec 95, right after the Dayton Accords were signed. I have seen first hand what the Serbs, Croatians, Muslims did to each other. At first NATO had a mandate for only 1 year. After I was there for only a month I told one of my squad guys we would be lucky if NATO got out after 10yrs. The U.S. finally got out of NATO after 10yrs! And guess what - the UN was in Bosnia before NATO and scewed thing up royal. As far as a military farce (yes spelled correctly) the UN sucks big time. If the UN had done it correctly I would have never been in Bosnia, but they didn't. I don't have much respect for the UN chain of command. They will put a military mission on the ground, but never give the Commander on site the authority he needs to do the job. Until they get their heads out of their sitting spot, well nuff said.
No American should do anything at the behest of the UN. Your oath of office is to the American constitution. It is against civilian as well as UCMJ law for any military personnel to take orders from foreign officers. Far as I'm concerned this country should not only not be a member, but should throw that Rockefeller financed organization off of American soil. I'd consider wearing a blue hat as treason and God Bless Michael New.

For more interesting reading concerning civil rights abuses check this one out.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0110-33.htm

George
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RE:Iraq discussion 04 Mar 2008 02:18 #67

  • Bill Adams
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brian robertson wrote:
Reference note: Sadam was installed in the leadership position, by the USA (CIA) after the coup that overthrew the elected govt. He was our creation, for better or worse.

The Shah was put in the leadership position of Iran, by the USA(CIA), after the coup that overthrew the elected govt.

The Saudi monarchy was installed by the USA.

Iraq received satelite intelligence, weapons and munitions from the USA during the 8 years of the Iran/Iraq war.

Conjecture: There's a possibility those WMD's used were "Made in America" or with American tech support. ]

***America produced three percent of Sadam's wepons that he had in 2003. most were Russin and Chinese. Germany built most of his palaces and

Infrastructure and France administered billions in the Oil for Kofi program***
[Do you see a pattern here? ]

***Yes. Last year's alli, is this year's enemy. Rememberber Stalin?***

[Do you have a clue as to why those folks might say, "Death to America"?]
***Yes, because they are taught that from birth. Obama bin Laden's fatwa against us was about our primiscous society and presesce in Saudi Arabia.

[Clue: It's not that they hate us for: freedom, democracy, and apple pie...]
*** Obama bin laden said he dose.

[Clue: They tried democracy, we just didn't like the result, so we tossed it, put in the monarch, shah and dictator we liked better...

Where? There has never been a war between tow true democracies.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Iraq discussion 06 Mar 2008 14:37 #68

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Jake Whitman in gray

Nearly 4,000 American and 100,000 Iraqis dead in Iraq: Why?

So you can sit on your wore - out old arse ,behind the computer screen, In complete safety.

Using short, declarative, sentences, please explain exactly how you feel my safety is somehow enhanced by the US invasion of Iraq? Quite to the contrary, our porous frontier and Bush's invasion has united Islam and probably increased the probability of another terrorist strike on the United States.

Residents of Iraq did not have the privledge to spout off pubicly

As badly as is must discombobulate the lunatic fringe, here in the States, Freedom of Speech is a right, not a privilege.

about Sadam when he was in power,

So what? Freedom of speech is not a guaranteed right in every nation, including every one of those bordering Iraq.

Like you do about Bush.

Do you find my penchant for exercising my Constitutionally guaranteed rights to be offputting?

Do you not think that wmd's could have gotten out of the country before we invaded,

Of course it's possible, but after 10 years of UN inspection, it was extremly improbable. The salient point being that there were were no WMDs in Iraq when Bush used their alleged presence as a reason to invade; ergo: Bush lied!

And it was Sadam's choice not to comply before the invasion,

Saddam said he didn't have any WMDs; Bush said he did; as it turned out, Saddam wasn't lying, Bush was.

But i guess when you look at things from a socialist point-of-view, they deffinately had security, knowing they would get more of the same, And by the way, he used wmd's on his own people, I am sure he would have loved to get some in the wrong hands before he was ousted.

It appears you are an indifferent student of history. The US supplied Iraq with both weaponry and technology during Iraq's war with Iran and it's very likely that some of the WMDs used by Iraq at that time had "Made in USA" stamped on them someplace. Bottom line? The US put WMDs in the "wrong hands" when it suited our purpose and countenanced their use against Iran and the Kurds because Saddam was "our guy" at the time.

If you think that he could not have gotten them here, just because he didn't have the conventional means to do so , you would be wrong,


Given that he had WMDs at one time but could not deliver them less than 1,000 miles to Iran or Israel, your argument is laughably specious. In reality Iraq has never had the capability of delivering a WMD to the US.

Thank god for George W Bush; and our brave soldiers,that we have not had another attack!

The bravery of our soldiers has never been at question; at issue is the needless sacrifice of about 4,000 Americans and upwards of 100,000 Iraqis who've died because Bush's lied.

Tom , would you like to see a muslim President?

LMAO! Do you know of any Muslims running for president?
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Iraq discussion 06 Mar 2008 15:57 #69

  • NorvalWilhelm
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This makes for some interesting reading???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
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RE:Iraq discussion 06 Mar 2008 16:01 #70

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RE:Iraq discussion 06 Mar 2008 16:20 #71

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RE:Iraq discussion 06 Mar 2008 16:44 #72

  • Cyber Farrier
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Enough with this posting of links to these wacked out conspiracy sites. I happen to know they're all full of it, because Elvis personally told me so, in the frozen food section of the local Piggly-Wiggly, while we were chatting with one of the men from the grassy knowl. BTW, Judge Crater was in the next aisle picking up some cool-aid.....

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

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RE:Iraq discussion 06 Mar 2008 16:47 #73

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Cyber Farrier wrote:
Enough with this posting of links to these wacked out conspiracy sites. I happen to know they're all full of it, because Elvis personally told me so, in the frozen food section of the local Piggly-Wiggly, while we were chatting with one of the men from the grassy knowl. BTW, Judge Crater was in the next isle picking up some cool-aid.....

Baron

Sorry Baron. I thought it made interesting reading along with the AMERO
And Elvis is not dead. I saw him in Callingwood last summer at an Elvis festival.:D

Blackwater is the real thing and about 7000 of them are in Iraq and about 60 cents of every dollar in that war goes to pay for them.
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RE:Iraq discussion 12 Mar 2008 07:40 #74

Tom Stovall, CJF;97690 wrote:
Repeating a fallacy over and over will not make it a true statement.

Snipped

I said that Bush lied to America about Iraq's having WMDs and used that lie as a basis for starting a war. Iraq did not have any WMDs; ergo, Bush lied.

Snipped

Iraq used mustard gas on both the Kurds and the Iranians. Iraq did not use WMDs during the Gulf War or during Bush's unprovoked invasion. Logic would dictate that if Iraq had both weapons and inclination, they'd have used them on an invading force as there's no benefit to saving them.




Nonsense. The world believed nothing of the sort; in fact, the only folks who claimed they believed Iraq had WMDs were Bush and his cronies. One can only wonder why Scott Ritter, the former chief UN arms inspector in Iraq, wrote in 2002:

When I left Iraq in 1998… the infrastructure and facilities had been 100% eliminated. There’s no doubt about that. All of their instruments and facilities had been destroyed. The weapons design facility had been destroyed. The production equipment had been hunted down and destroyed. And we had in place means to monitor - both from vehicles and from the air - the gamma rays that accompany attempts to enrich uranium or plutonium. We never found anything…We blanketed Iraq - every research and development facility, every university, every school, every hospital, every beer factory…

MR Stovall ( this begins my post)

From the interview with Mr. Ritter you quote I offer you the opportunity to re read what he said.

( MR Ritter is bieing asked about WMD"s BY CNN reporter in 2002. )

RITTER: What I'm very certain of is that the Bush administration has not provided any evidence to substantiate its allegations that Saddam Hussein's regime is currently pursuing weapons of mass destruction programs or is in actual possession of weapons of mass destruction.

Based upon my experience as a weapons inspector from 1991 to 1998, while we had serious concerns about unaccounted aspects of Iraq's weapons program, we did ascertain a 90 [percent] to 95 percent level of disarmament that included all of the production equipment and means of production used by Iraq to produce these weapons.

Clearly MR Ritter is dancing around the facts when he said he eliminated ALL of the production Capabilities but only disarmed 90-95% he is saying that there WERE WMD's as of 1998 and He left intact and unfound 10-5% OF that "Unaccounted" . kind of hard to quantify "Uncounted" is it not?

HE is by this admission declaring that Bush did not lie. That WMD's did exist and he clearly said so , and by disarmament he meant WMD's because that was his Mandate not Tanks or planes or guns Just Nuclear and WMD/s

MR Ritter has/d an ax to grind Clearly he speaks and testifies through Omission " While we had serious concerns about unaccounted" and now by MR Ritter "unspoken. " but glossed over by saying - well we wrecked the factory/s . Fat lot of good that does after they have been built.

And clearly he says they "Have Been Built"

Chuck Presnail

And MR Stovall you are correct Sadam did not kick out the inspectors they left in 1998 when they were told Pres. Clinton was going to send in a missle strike.
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RE:Iraq discussion 12 Mar 2008 12:33 #75

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Chuck Presnail in gray, deletia

From the interview with Mr. Ritter you quote I offer you the opportunity to re read what he said.

( MR Ritter is bieing asked about WMD"s BY CNN reporter in 2002. )


RITTER: What I'm very certain of is that the Bush administration has not provided any evidence to substantiate its allegations that Saddam Hussein's regime is currently pursuing weapons of mass destruction programs or is in actual possession of weapons of mass destruction.

Based upon my experience as a weapons inspector from 1991 to 1998, while we had serious concerns about unaccounted aspects of Iraq's weapons program, we did ascertain a 90 [percent] to 95 percent level of disarmament that included all of the production equipment and means of production used by Iraq to produce these weapons.


Clearly MR Ritter is dancing around the facts when he said he eliminated ALL of the production Capabilities but only disarmed 90-95% he is saying that there WERE WMD's as of 1998 and He left intact and unfound 10-5% OF that "Unaccounted" . kind of hard to quantify "Uncounted" is it not?

Please re-read what Mr Ritter wrote about his experience as a UN weapons inspector in 1998, paying careful attention to the term "currently" as it applied to 2003.


HE is by this admission declaring that Bush did not lie. That WMD's did exist and he clearly said so , and by disarmament he meant WMD's because that was his Mandate not Tanks or planes or guns Just Nuclear and WMD/s


In reality, Ritter clearly stated that Bush lied about Saddam's having WMDs. In conformation of Ritter's 1998 assessment of Saddam's weaponry, please be aware that no WMDs were used by Iraq when Bush invaded in 2003, no WMD manufacturing facilities have been found, and no WMDs have been found. No matter what kind of spin and obfuscation Bush's apologists try to to apply to the facts and no matter how much Orwellian newspeak is used by the administration, the salient facts are these: Saddam said he had no WMDs in 2003; Bush said he did and invaded Iraq in that basis. Indisputably, Bush's lies have been directly responsible for the needless deaths of nearly 4,000 American soldiers and 100,000 Iraqis - and counting.

MR Ritter has/d an ax to grind Clearly he speaks and testifies through Omission " While we had serious concerns about unaccounted" and now by MR Ritter "unspoken. " but glossed over by saying - well we wrecked the factory/s . Fat lot of good that does after they have been built.

Your premise is invalid because it presumes the conclusion to be demonstrated; i.e., that WMDs had been built. Since none have been found, one could not possibly know that any were built unless one were clairvoyant.

And clearly he says they "Have Been Built"

Please see above, bearing in mind that Ritter's statement was relative to 1998 and Bush invaded in 2003

And MR Stovall you are correct Sadam did not kick out the inspectors they left in 1998 when they were told Pres. Clinton was going to send in a missle strike.

As I recall, Clinton informed the UN inspectors he was going to bomb Iraqi radar and anti-aircraft sites that represented a threat to US aircraft in the "no fly" zone in Southern Iraq. (The pragmatist in me thinks Bill might've been trying to take some heat off the impeachment proceedings at the time.) At any rate, your argument is digressive because the Clinton-ordered bombings had nothing to do with WMDs or UN weapons inspectors in northern Iraq.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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