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TOPIC: Iraq discussion

RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 15:19 #16

  • Gary_Miller
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
We invaded Iraq on the basis of Bush's lies.
No sir we invaded on the basis that Saddam was toying with the UN mandates by kicking out the UN weapons inspector serveral times since the end of the Kwait invasion. This should have been done way before Bush came on the scene.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
No WMDs were ever used on American troops,
So what you are saying nothing should be done until WMDs (Chemical/Biological/Nuclaer) are used. As a retire military member of society I pray we never wait for them to be used, on anyone, before we do something.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
no WMDs were found, no viable nuclear technology was found,
Of course not. What do you think Saddam was doing when he kicked the weapons inspectors out?
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
no link between 9/11 was found.
9/11 had nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq. Of course the 9/11 link is there now. Why do you think this is?
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
By deposing Saddam, we've created a power vaccuum that changed a secular dictatorship into a theocratic nightmare in which the mullas try to outdo one another in spreading their vitriol, created fertile ground for terrorism in the Middle East by destabilizing the region, re-ignited ethnic hatreds that had simmered for 1,600 years and fueled a civil war in which the only uniting factor is Muslim hatred for the US.
So said to bad. All the more reason we should not leave right away. Oh and encase you forgot the Muslim world has hated anyone who does not believe the way they do.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Balderdash! Our invasion of Iraq was a de facto unilateral decision made by the Bush administration.
The decision was to up hold UN mandates and resolutions. At some point we have to do what we say we will do other wise your words mean nothing. The UN told Saddam to stop kicking out the inspectors and let them do thier job. All Saddam did was laugh in the UNs face. Its just to bad the UN did not have the guts to do thier job. All the more reason we need to get out of the UN.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
You have it backwards: We attacked Iraq, they didn't attack us!
I was not just talking about Iraq.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
You appear to be describing the Bush propaganda machine and Karl Rove's strategy.
No sir I was talking about the Korean war and Gen. McAurthers plan to go all the way to Beijing. Which of course he was stopped by the politicians. Which allowed the chineese to regroup and force us back to the 38th parallel where the war stopped but never ended.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
The current administration has done a great job at managing the news and treating the American Public like mushrooms -
Your so funny. The administration does not manage the news. They do however control what is release military wise. Which is what they are suppose to do. Its called secret information, only to be given out on a need to know basis. What would you have them do post in the paper and on the nightly news what our military plan to do next. I think not.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
but folks are starting to wake up to the fact that wars cost money,
Wars do cost money thats a fact, but remember congress all gave thier blessing, and we voted for congress.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
much of our industry is gone, and our economy is in shambles.
Thanks to the taxes and other mandates (enviromental) levied on manufatures by congress. Which we voted for.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Nonsense. Historically, with few exceptions, revolutions install new sets of thieves, they don't do much for the common man
What do you think would happen if muslum women were allowed to dicide for themselves, who they would marry, what they would ware, who they would vote for, ect.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
You might want to take a look around you at the state of public education in the United States
I hear it all the time. However, I have yet to see it in the public schools where I live. Yes at times the teachers will give thier personal views on something that may be diffrent than what I would like my kid to believe. However, you can not make a sound desicion if you don't know the issues and diffrences. The real problem is not public eduction but parents failure to parent. And the communities falure to get involved with the local education system. Our schools have become free day care centers.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
and the influence of multinational-controlled media on public opinion.
Opinion is based on what people hear. After all it must be true if its in the news. One has to study all sources and come up with their own decision. Something that seems to be hard for people to do.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Do you really think our losing heavy industry and jobs is "good" for our country?
NO
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Do you think the megacorporations created by multinational corporate mergers and ensuing lack of competition is "good" for the country?
NO
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Do you think all those empty storefronts in Smalltown, America are "good" for the country?
NO
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Do you think the "one world" concept so dear to multinationals is "good" for our country?
No
I think one of the biggest problems we have is that we are no longer a self sustaining nation. We rely way to much on other nations to supply us with oil, steel, food, ect.. However, we have but ourself in this sitution by placing mandates on private industry that made it cheaper to move their operations out of country. Mandates placed on them by the congress we elected.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
The queen an emperor? I take your point about lack of education and the easily led. :)
If you remember your history you will recall that prior to the revolutionary war. Great Britain was indeed creating and empire thru out the world, and they were not afraid to use force to do it. The settling and colonizing of the Americas is just one example.:eek:
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 15:21 #17

  • solidrockshoer
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Also I think you fail to realize why these people attack us in the first place. Its called blowback. Blowback from years of terrorizing their countries from within. We need to leave them alone for once. Western powers have been responsible for creating instability in the middle east for the last 50 years. We need to stop.

Yea these poor terrorist, heck they were justified on flying planes into the twin towers because we've never left them alone...give me a break. Just because we share opposite views on this subject doesn't mean that I'm ignorant or don't have the facts at all. Just means I think for myself instead of believing everything I watch on tv. I think your the one that needs to get your facts straight. Saying thats we've created instability??? I distictly remember capturing a man who has killed his own people just for the hell of it (Saddam). So capturing him and keeping troops over there to try to get things on the right track is creating instability in that country how?
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 16:47 #18

  • Gabino
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Thanks very much to USA for invade Irak.The Spanish president Zapatero is a great coward.
Once again, the Americans have to save the backside to the Europeans.
Gabino Fernández Baquero

www.farriergabino.com
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 16:59 #19

  • Gary_Miller
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Gabinoherrador wrote:
Thanks very much to USA for invade Irak.
Your welcome.
Gabinoherrador wrote:
The Spanish president Zapatero is a great coward.
Along with many other nations in the UN.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 17:22 #20

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PerformanceHorseshoeing wrote:
Yea these poor terrorist, heck they were justified on flying planes into the twin towers because we've never left them alone...give me a break.

I wouldn't treat murderous individuals as justified victims. There was no exuse for what happened on 9/11. But please dont insult my intelligence by haveing me beleive that these people want to kill us "because of our freedoms". Such reasoning is ludicrous and absent of fact. Why do other "free" countries like Denmark, or Switzerland or Finland not come under attack for there cultures that allow free speech and expression?

The thing you and Gary dont seem to understand is that the US (and other major world powers) chopped up the middle east years ago, and drew lines through territories and divided the lands and cultures. Our foreign policy has been constantly responsible for 'disappearing' people, and installing harsh dictators for decades in these counties. Now thats got to **** some people off more than the fact that I can confess my undying love for three ladies wrestle topless in a kiddie pool filled with jello.
Just because we share opposite views on this subject doesn't mean that I'm ignorant or don't have the facts at all.

Your right, I apologize. I did sound like a personal attack, and it was not meant to be. Your response just says to me you have not been exposed to or reasonably weighed the facts.
Just means I think for myself instead of believing everything I watch on tv. I think your the one that needs to get your facts straight. Saying thats we've created instability??? I distictly remember capturing a man who has killed his own people just for the hell of it (Saddam). So capturing him and keeping troops over there to try to get things on the right track is creating instability in that country how?

Why dont you look up death toll figures in Iraq prior to our attack on the country and get back to me on this one. The facts speak for them selfs.

Saddam violently crushed a Shia uprising (and a few by the Kurds) in the 90's killing a lot of people who were rebelling and wanted independence. What a mess. But you could go ahead and compare that behavior to American Hero's like Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman and tell me if we should have strung up Lincoln?

Gary Miller,
Tom pretty much summed up most of my thoughts, but I just have to say that as Americans whos government commands a might military, its OK for us to decide which murderous dictator to support and which we should 'get' at the cost of killing ten of thousands of innocent people? Before thinking that your government is an all godly force serving for the good of humanity, why dont you take a look at the amount of dictators with a bloodlust we finance every day. Many of them far worse than Saddam. Saddam just didnt want to play by the rules. That silly little dictator.
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 17:23 #21

  • brian robertson
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Foot note: Western powers have been manipulating the Middle East since the fall of the Ottoman Empire (Turks) after WW1. Just for giggles the Brits drew up the current national borders, seperating indigenous peoples causing the formation artificial States without any natural cohesiveness.

After WW2, Western powers unilaterally relocated their "Jewish Problem" in someone else backyard.

In the Middle East, Western powers have removed elected officials (assasinations), installed kings/dicators, manipulated economies to foward Western financial interests.

Do you think you might be willing to lash out if somebody had done that to you?

I do not support or condone the terrorists attacks against civilians. I do think I understand the "why" part.
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 19:28 #22

  • Gary_Miller
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SlowShoe wrote:
The thing you and Gary dont seem to understand is that the US (and other major world powers) chopped up the middle east years ago, and drew lines through territories and divided the lands and cultures. Our foreign policy has been constantly responsible for 'disappearing' people, and installing harsh dictators for decades in these counties. Now thats got to **** some people off more than the fact that I can confess my undying love for three ladies wrestle topless in a kiddie pool filled with jello.
I understand this prefictly. However, don't you find it interesting that those who a practice terrorisum are not those who are in the postion of running governments but hide in caves and other locations where the influance the people and the governments with terrorisum and gorrella warefare. Using the poor of the contries to accomplish the tasks.

SlowShoe wrote:
Saddam violently crushed a Shia uprising (and a few by the Kurds) in the 90's killing a lot of people who were rebelling and wanted independence..
So did Britian in the 1700 until the people had enough. And it was not until we recieved help from france that we were able to gain our independance.
And what was it Saddam was doing in Kwait?

Gary Miller,
SlowShoe wrote:
Tom pretty much summed up most of my thoughts, but I just have to say that as Americans whos government commands a might military, its OK for us to decide which murderous dictator to support and which we should 'get' at the cost of killing ten of thousands of innocent people? Before thinking that your government is an all godly force serving for the good of humanity, why dont you take a look at the amount of dictators with a bloodlust we finance every day. Many of them far worse than Saddam. Saddam just didnt want to play by the rules. That silly little dictator.
You seem to forget that in this country "we the people" are the government.
We "the people" want a mighty military. Its our mighty military that stops others from treading on the flowers in your garden.
That right those who are members of the UN need to play by the rules. Those that don't need to be dismissed. If we are going to be members of the UN then we need to be in control of what goes on in the UN and the world. After all its our money and our military that does all the UNs work.

If you don't like what you representives are doing then we need to elect new ones. We "the people" need to take control of the government and get rid of those in WDC that do not and will not uphold the oath they have taken.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 21:54 #23

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary_Miller wrote:
If you don't like what you representives are doing then we need to elect new ones. We "the people" need to take control of the government and get rid of those in WDC that do not and will not uphold the oath they have taken.

Well, my pick for the upcoming presidential election is "none of the above".
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 23:18 #24

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Well, my pick for the upcoming presidential election is "none of the above".

Pretty much my thoughts exactly, when you've got John I want to bomb the hell out of Iron McCain, and Hillary I'd probably bomb Iran Clinton and Beroc I havent taken it off the table Oboma the cards are stacked against any reasonable candidate being elected. Not to mention the republican party changing the election rules so that many could not vote for good people like Ron Paul and many many voting irregularities in the primaries. I have no faith in this current system.

The only true hope for freedom is the Free State Project.
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 23:39 #25

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Gary_Miller wrote:
9/11 had nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq. Of course the 9/11 link is there now.
Can you provide us with this information, or is it classified? :)

Oh wait.. There is no 9/11 link to Iraq. In fact the only country that really has a significant link to 9/11 is Saudi Arabia.


But anyway its all ok; They said we need to attack iraq because Iraq is about to attack the US. THAT was the reason. ( The UN inspectors WERE doing their job and they were there. Iraq was destroying the missiles that the UN asked them to, and doing what they asked. Just look at the reports written by the UN inspectors that went public when we started invading. ) Now that we know the administration lied to us, they say "We'll saddam was a bad guy, he had to go. Oh and all the terrorists are there now so we gotta stay"

So it would be ok for me to stand up in a massive lecture hall full to occupancy and scream "FIRE! FIRE!!". Then after everyone has rushed outside and people have been trampled someone would ask me "Josh where was the fire?!" and my reply would be, "I guess there was no fire, but it ok you looked like you all needed some fresh air"
Gary M wrote:
Of course the 9/11 link is there now. Why do you think this is?

Maybe the same reason Abraham Lincoln said the civil war was over slavery. Yeah thats the same guy who offered an olive branch to the confederacy saying he would allow all the US states to be slave states.
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RE:Iraq discussion 27 Feb 2008 02:37 #26

I just wanted to reply to Tom S.'s statement that Bush lied about the WMD's. If Bush lied about WMD's, so did Clinton (Remember all of the cruise missiles he shot), so did the UN (remember all the sanctions they placed on Iraq), so did Saddam (he never denied it and refused UN inspectors in his country). It was stated on NPR that an interrogator of Saddam was told by Saddam himself that he intentionally lead the UN to believe he had WMD's to prevent Iran from invading.

Tom, I have read some of your previous post and you sound like a smart man. Please don't make statements that are based in Democratic propaganda and not facts. The whole world believed Iraq had WMD's and was pursuing Nuclear Weapons.

If you want to speculate that Bush invaded because he wanted to clean up after Pres. Bush #1 and that used that he WMD's as an excuse, I can go along with that.

If you want to speculate that he invaded for oil and used WMD's as an excuse, I could along with that.

WMD's may not have been the only reason for invasion, but they were a valid reason. The only one who lied about WMD's was Saddam.

Roger
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RE:Iraq discussion 27 Feb 2008 02:43 #27

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I was not going to get in to the middle of this discussion, if you remember Bush got on tv and said he did LIE about the weapons of mass destruction and I did say that LOUD!
I know good and well I'm not ****** and was not hearing things and by the was Mr Tom, your input, I second that motion, thank you.

I bow out Gracefully
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RE:Iraq discussion 27 Feb 2008 02:49 #28

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RE:Iraq discussion 27 Feb 2008 03:17 #29

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First of all Roger. It's blatantly obvious the administration lied dont be so naive. The CIA even put out a report saying Iraq was no threat and was not pursuing nuclear weapons.

"The White House's former top anti-terrorism adviser [richard clark] says President Bush ignored warnings about al-Qaeda and ordered him to find a link between the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and Iraq."

Richard Clark also said that shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11 he told Rummy that Afghanistan was what we needed to go after .... "Secretary Rumsfeld said there are no good targets in Afghanistan, let’s bomb Iraq. And initially I thought he was kidding." -Richard Clark


Roger Williams wrote:
WMD's may not have been the only reason for invasion, but they were a valid reason.

Your saying countries have no right to protect them selfs? Why should we be the only ones with the big guns? Pakistan (which is not so stable) has a dictator and nuclear weapons, should we bomb the **** out of them?
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RE:Iraq discussion 27 Feb 2008 03:29 #30

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here your proof

You've got to be kidding. A video that has been all cut up and edited very clevery on youtube is your proof?:eek: This reminds me of Ann Culters new book, "If Democrats had brains they'd be Republicans". If you missed it the key in that video was Bush saying we don't need to wait for a smoking gun.
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