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TOPIC: Iraq discussion

Iraq discussion 25 Feb 2008 16:49 #1

  • SlowShoe
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Sorry about bringing this up, I needed to respond to bill.

SlowShoe]
Are you saying we need to kill everyone in iraq? Or just the Sunnis? Maybe the Sheits? Otherwise there is no way to finish militarily. There divisions run too deep for us to understand. Since we destroyed the stabilizing power in the region, there aint much we can do. We need to apologize and leave.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Bill Adams wrote:
Have you noticed what has happened since June? Is it perfect? Is it far better? Let the grownups , like Gen. Petrais, keep things going and show a comitment to finisg and our alies will be the stablizing force in the regon. If we surender in Iraq, all hell will break lose.


Bill,
As far as commanding officers such as General Petrais go, the ones that were spewing facts from the ground were replaced with "Yes Men" by the administration many months, so I wouldn't rely on the current set of brass to make the correct decision.

If you are referring to the troop surge, it had no real effect on violence levels in Iraq. If your going to point out the lower level of violence you might as well get the whole story.

The parts of Iraq that are stable are the parts that certain ethnic groups have successfully removed the other from the land by killing them and the constant threat of violence. The Sunnis have been removed from much of the mixed areas and Shias have taken their homes, the opposite has happened in other areas. Neighborhoods that were mixed are now predominantly one ethnic group or the other.

Basically they have ethnically cleansed these areas of each other creating a peace because there is no more 'work' to do. There is no stabilizing force in the region (US military included) beyond this type of madness. To think that there is, is the rational of a fool. Those of you who want to finance a war like this, can get a little group together, do some fund raisers and higher Black Water to go in there and shoot up the place. I'd like no part of breeding terrorism and anti-American sentiment.
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RE:Iraq discussion 25 Feb 2008 17:49 #2

The major reason for American troops to be there is to prevent ethnic cleansing. The ****e majority was oppressed by Saddam Huissen(sp?) (S.H.). When freed thay started killing, with the help of their breathern in Iran. The Kurds are the red headed step children of Iraq. S.H. used the Kurds as practice for his chemical weapons. SH flew planes over and gassed entire towns. There is too much hate, and not a strong central Government. If we leave we will see Bosinia all over again.

Has anyone noticed what has happend to imperial nations when that stop expanding? Let us review. Grease ruled the known world under Alexander the Great. A the G died, internal strife, greese died. Rome ruled the known world, stopped expanding and now only controls a city. The Aga Kon (SP) conqured all of Asia and the Middle East. The monguls stopped expanding, and the only thing we have from them is our trade; horseshoeing(according to Butlers book). Muhammids followers conqured most of Asia and Southern Europe. They have never stopped trying to expand, they are still there. Their weakness is in their closed mindedness. They focused on Islam and forgot science. They were the world leaders in knowledge; now, not so much.

The US is heading down that direction.

Corn will never be a viable option for fuel. There will be a major war over oil in the future, most likely with in 50 to 100 years. I would rather have a few bases in the area from with we could fight from than trying to invade. I may be dead at the time but my kids wont be.

I know there are enough holes in my historical perspective to make it sink faster than a lead brick. I was just practicing my politician speak.

Roger
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RE:Iraq discussion 25 Feb 2008 18:32 #3

  • SlowShoe
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Rodger, Roger!
But you are pretty much exactly wrong with all of your points regarding empires expanding. The reason the Roman empire failed (like many others) was the fact it stretched itself too thin by trying to occupy too many lands. The emperors started clipping coins (creating inflation) too pay for the military actions causing the economy and defense to crash. Wars and ramped inflation (sound familiar?) are why nations fall, not because they wish to be peaceful and trade with others while maintaining a strong internal defense. If you want to live in an empire, go find one. I live in a constitutional republic thats been perversed into thinking its a democracy.

As far as Iraq is concerned we are not preventing any ethnic cleansing, nor have we ever been since our encroachment upon their lands. US intervention and medaling has divided and destroyed nations and bread hate creating what the CIA calls 'blowback' in the form of terrorism. Ethnic cleansing continues every day. Its a civil war over there and while it sounds heartless we needent be involved, for good reason.

As far as major wars over oil go. If you want to talk about oil, it is of central cause in this war. But its not that we need the oil, its the fact that it needs to be controlled. Iraq was producing a LOT of oil. There is an agreement with oil producing nations to use the US dollar to trade oil. In 2000 Saddam refused to trade oil in us dollars opting for the Euro instead (Ironically just like Iran is doing). Thats got to tick someone off. Also he was not limiting production as the oil cartels would have liked. Iraq was a big producer of oil for the world economy. I dont know about you, but my petroleum prices have gone up since the war, not down. So your thinking that we are fighting to get MORE oil is completely bass-akwards. The fighting is to control and repress the distribution of oil. And makeing sure that nations are following the rules and using the dollar to do so. Technology for getting oil, refining it, finding it has never been better. Every year we find and tap into a new Massive oil field that increases the supply of oil by billions and billions of barrels (massive oil fields recently foudn under gulf of mexico, and in Iran). Yet we haven't built a refinery in the US in decades while big oil makes billions. All these new discoveries of oil lead many scientists to rethink the fossil fuel categorization of oil. Many are thinking that oil and natural gas are constantly being produced by earth, and its not the once living plant and animal matter they thought it was. It in fact may be, while dirty and outdated, a form of renewable energy.

As far as bio-energy like corn. Your right, corn based fuel is takes just as much petroleum to make as energy you get out. Industrial hemp is the absolute best crop for fuel, paper and plastic. The world has used it since ancient times. Many other countries use it, but ths US outlaws it for some absurd reason.

Now I've got to give the left side of my brain a break and go shoe some horses.

'over.
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RE:Iraq discussion 25 Feb 2008 19:05 #4

All points taken and noted, expecially the ones about my historical perspectives. I know that was coming after I wrote it.

I Agree with you on the part of letting the left side of the brain rest. I was going to erase my post and stick to more important pursuits, work, checking into certification, and breaking a 3 year old filly.
Roger
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RE:Iraq discussion 25 Feb 2008 22:00 #5

  • Mike Ferrara
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I think we could help stabalize the middle east...though I don't know if we actually are. What it is costing us is another matter. Nothing over there is worth my son to me so I'd be just as happy to make the place a parking lot if they get to be too much trouble.

If the "terrorists" really want to come here and pick a fight, let them. I might not be as "bad" as a bunch of Marines but I haven't signed any silly Geneve convention either so I promise to be about 1000 times more ruthless.

I think the "war on terror" is a myth...though warrentless spying on our own people is VERY real. If there was ever a reason to kick someones ass, that would be it. LOL, between the republicans wanting to short cut one part of the constitution and the democrats wanting to do away with the other, there are terrorists alright and we elected them!
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RE:Iraq discussion 25 Feb 2008 22:45 #6

  • ray steele
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I think we could help stabalize the middle east...though I don't know if we actually are. What it is costing us is another matter. Nothing over there is worth my son to me so I'd be just as happy to make the place a parking lot if they get to be too much trouble.

* Mike , with all respect to your son and you, I bet there are a # if dads of Iraqi persuasion who feel exactly the same as you.



If the "terrorists" really want to come here and pick a fight, let them. I might not be as "bad" as a bunch of Marines but I haven't signed any silly Geneve convention either so I promise to be about 1000 times more ruthless.

* I believe that the terroists did come here to pick a fight, and we(the USA and its "coalition) responded , problem as I see it the terroists that attacked he US are holding up in Afganistan, we attacked the soveriegn nation of Iraq.

I think the "war on terror" is a myth...though warrentless spying on our own people is VERY real. If there was ever a reason to kick someones ass, that would be it. LOL, between the republicans wanting to short cut one part of the constitution and the democrats wanting to do away with the other, there are terrorists alright and we elected them!

* When I complain about our elected leaders ,I try to look into the mirror and see the person who did not work hard enough to keep the sob's out of office!

As always the highest respect to your son and his comrades, tho I do not agree with their mission.

As I have said before , I don't know how you can spread democracy at the end of a M16.

I'm off to town meeting this evening at 7 pm and will check in.

Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:Iraq discussion 25 Feb 2008 23:36 #7

The heels on the Iraqi ponies are too tall. The sole calus has been removed. UST principles should fix them.
George Spear
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".....and I said to the horse: Trust no man in whose eyes you do not see yourself reflected as an equal."
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"What people do not appreciate is that every time a horse submits to...
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 01:56 #8

  • solidrockshoer
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Ooo this ones going to get shut down within a few pages.:rolleyes: I think we should send the big one over there and turn the place into glass and take their oil. Hell they want to live in rubble anyway. This way we'd kill a few birds with one stone. We'd have oil (whatever is left after the big one), troops would come home, no more terrorist breeding more of their kind, and we'd gain a lot of respect from other "bullies". Instead of being thought of as a wishy washy country we'd be the country who doesn't f around. Or maybe we should listen to Ron Paul and just take the troops home without finishing their jobs and sit and wait for more terrorist attacks? Just my cents.:D
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 04:18 #9

There is one thing I know about war is it's nasty business. Is the war in Iraq necessary???? That decision is over my pay grade. I thank those that serve and thank god I'm not in a position to have to determine whether we stay or go. Those decisions are made by people that have more information than we will ever get.

All I'll say is it's very easy to sit at your desk and scream and yell either way.

I love this country!!!;)
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Will Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBimQu6Pxxs
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 06:25 #10

  • SlowShoe
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PerformanceHorseshoeing wrote:
just take the troops home without finishing their jobs and sit and wait for more terrorist attacks? Just my cents.:D

Nick, you need to educate yourself on the subject a bit. Your post sounds hateful and a bit ignorant of the facts. Please reffer to my proir post about oil.

Also I think you fail to realize why these people attack us in the first place. Its called blowback. Blowback from years of terrorizing their countries from within. We need to leave them alone for once. Western powers have been responsible for creating instability in the middle east for the last 50 years. We need to stop.
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 06:39 #11

  • Gary_Miller
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SlowShoe wrote:
We need to apologize and leave.
Apologize for what? Taking care of a tyrant dictator and enforcing the UN mandates. Lets not forget that the tyrant dictator started it when he decided to invade Kuwait in 1991. The problem was we stopped then instead of going all the way and finishing the job. Anytime we have stopped doing the job we end up spending more money and sending more troops over a longer period of time. Korea would just be one example.
PerformanceHorseshoeing wrote:
we'd be the country who doesn't f around.
I alway though that is exactlly what we did. At least it felt like that when I deployed 10 days after 9/11, to go kick some terrorist b u tt, and did not return for 5 1/2 months.
Thats what we did when we went to Iraq and took care of the tyrant dictator who had spent over ten years jerking the UN inspectors around. We stood up and did something even though it was not the popular thing to do. It was how ever something we should of done long before then. Like the first time the tyrant dictator kicked the UN inspectors out.
We may have a lot of troops currently in Iraq at this time but deployments to that part of the country have been a contiuous on going since we kicked the tyrant dictator out of Kuwait in 1991. I know I was there more than once. We just never was on the ground but we was in the air around the clock.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 06:51 #12

  • Gary_Miller
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SlowShoe wrote:
you need to educate yourself on the subject a bit. Your post sounds hateful and a bit ignorant of the facts.
I think you need to educate your self and stop listening to people like Ron Paul and others who have no clue and only want to mislead the American people.
SlowShoe wrote:
Please reffer to my proir post about oil.
Its never been about oil. Its alway been about inforcing the UN mandates of disarming and allowing in the weapons inspectors.
SlowShoe wrote:
Also I think you fail to realize why these people attack us in the first place.
They attacked us because our ideals and freedoms are a threat to the tyrant dictators in the middle east. This is the same reason with China and North Korea. They do their best to keep their uneducated, poor and ill informed about world events. Because if thier people knew about the freedoms that we have they would soon revolt and have a revolution all thier own.

A uneducated society that relies on government for all they need is easy to control. Its when they get educated and learn that they can do for themselves that the people stand up revolt and take matters in their own hands. Just ask the British Empiror.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 07:44 #13

Roger, All the more reasons that we need guns and ammo, the radical jihadist factions will not rest until we are DEAD, there is no reasoning with them. I am not going to try to make peace , sit down, and talk about feelings with them, if there at my door, i'll shoot first ! Thank Jesus that we have brave men and women fighting for us so that we don't have them at our door! Jake
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 08:18 #14

  • Mike Ferrara
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ray steele wrote:

* I believe that the terroists did come here to pick a fight, and we(the USA and its "coalition) responded , problem as I see it the terroists that attacked he US are holding up in Afganistan, we attacked the soveriegn nation of Iraq.

The ones we need to worry about are already here. They learn the biology, chemistry and physics in our own universities. The guys who flew the planes into those buildings, learned to fly those planes here.

* When I complain about our elected leaders ,I try to look into the mirror and see the person who did not work hard enough to keep the sob's out of office!

I agree and I'm open to suggestions.


As I have said before , I don't know how you can spread democracy at the end of a M16.

Someone is always wanting to spread something. Maybe that's part of the problem.
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RE:Iraq discussion 26 Feb 2008 13:17 #15

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Gary_Miller in gray

I think you need to educate your self and stop listening to people like Ron Paul and others who have no clue and only want to mislead the American people.

Please spare me the high-blown rhetoric and tell it like it is: We invaded Iraq on the basis of Bush's lies. No WMDs were ever used on American troops, no WMDs were found, no viable nuclear technology was found, no link between 9/11 was found. By deposing Saddam, we've created a power vaccuum that changed a secular dictatorship into a theocratic nightmare in which the mullas try to outdo one another in spreading their vitriol, created fertile ground for terrorism in the Middle East by destabilizing the region, re-ignited ethnic hatreds that had simmered for 1,600 years and fueled a civil war in which the only uniting factor is Muslim hatred for the US.

Its never been about oil. Its alway been about inforcing the UN mandates of disarming and allowing in the weapons inspectors.

Balderdash! Our invasion of Iraq was a de facto unilateral decision made by the Bush administration.

They attacked us because our ideals and freedoms are a threat to the tyrant dictators in the middle east.

You have it backwards: We attacked Iraq, they didn't attack us!

This is the same reason with China and North Korea. They do their best to keep their uneducated, poor and ill informed about world events.

You appear to be describing the Bush propaganda machine and Karl Rove's strategy. The current administration has done a great job at managing the news and treating the American Public like mushrooms - but folks are starting to wake up to the fact that wars cost money, much of our industry is gone, and our economy is in shambles.

Because if thier people knew about the freedoms that we have they would soon revolt and have a revolution all thier own.

Nonsense. Historically, with few exceptions, revolutions install new sets of thieves, they don't do much for the common man.

A uneducated society that relies on government for all they need is easy to control. Its when they get educated and learn that they can do for themselves that the people stand up revolt and take matters in their own hands.

You might want to take a look around you at the state of public education in the United States and the influence of multinational-controlled media on public opinion. Do you really think our losing heavy industry and jobs is "good" for our country? Do you think the megacorporations created by multinational corporate mergers and ensuing lack of competition is "good" for the country? Do you think all those empty storefronts in Smalltown, America are "good" for the country? Do you think the "one world" concept so dear to multinationals is "good" for our country?

Just ask the British Empiror.

The queen an emperor? I take your point about lack of education and the easily led. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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