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TOPIC: Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing

RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 13:03 #31

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jason Maki wrote:
It confuses me, so how does an owner stand a chance in knowing who is a "farrier"?

Are you saying that it can't be done? There are probably as many ways as there are owners and some owners may not even care much.

I do not know if licensing is the answer, but in my opinion, there is far to varied a skill level and knowledge base in the proffesion.
JMO,
Jason

Says who? Do you think that consumers have too many choices?

I thought you were a free market guy. If an owner wants to have some kid with tools from the tractor supply and no education do their work, who else needs to stick their nose in? I say, leave them to handle their own affairs.
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 13:04 #32

  • Gary_Miller
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Jason Maki wrote:
Would it be so bad to have a standardized education and knowledge base for farriers? At present a "farrier" can be anyone form a guy with tractor supply tools and no education and experience to someone like Bob Pethic, Chris Gregory etc...
Oh the ability to choose what you want to do and be when one grows up. As well as how good or how fare you want to go in your chosen profession. Kind of nice when you really sit back and think about it

Jason Maki wrote:
It confuses me, so how does an owner stand a chance in knowing who is a "farrier"?
I guess they just need to get educated as well. Instead of just listening to the person who OWNS the horse in the next stall.

Jason Maki wrote:
I do not know if licensing is the answer, but in my opinion, there is far to varied a skill level and knowledge base in the proffesion.
Thats what makes this such a nice profession. An individual can still choose what kind of skill level and knowledge base he wants . Its called freedom to choose. The nice thing is, that in the GOOD OL USA we don't have to conform to someone else's standard on education or skill, at lest in Farriery, if we don't want to and we still get to work/run our own business in our chosen profession. Why would anyone want to give that up?

Thank God for the United States Of America.
Gary Miller, PF

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"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 13:14 #33

  • George Geist
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
And if they do research, let's see the papers, articles, data, double blind studies, etc. that show the results and findings from that research. If you can't produce those, then shut the heck up.:rolleyes:
This I think is a very pertinent point. This place was the flagship endeavor of Ralph. He built it with volunteer labor, on his property. Can anybody out there point to any relevent groundbreaking discoveries that have come out of this hallowed institution?

According to Mr Case it's been over 10 years now? What have these guys to show for all this "research"?
George
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 13:54 #34

Mike;Gary,
In form I understand and actually beleive in what you are saying. Perhaps my perception has been changed slightly by working with vets and vet students on a daily basis. They benefit from a commonality in education and experience. They share a common vocabulary and have a a good network for exchanging information. I see that lacking in our field. Externships, internships and residencies are the norm; while most shoeing apprenticeships here are informal and unpaid. a "license' does not make a skilled proffesional, but effort and education does.
I'm stuck in the middle. Laisez faire worked for me, but I sought out every opportunity to learn more and every certification i thought mattered (and I still am preparing for more tests--the TE and the AWCF) i ran down. My point is this: if I can do it anyone can. Would it be a terrible thing to have some form of standardization of skills and knolwedge for farriers?
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 14:30 #35

  • Rafter B
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Jason,

I completely agree with you. I also am a huge supporter of this great country that allows us to do what we want, but I ask the same question. Why would it be a bad thing to try to make our profession as best as it can be by raising the standards for every farrier? When people get the different certifications through whichever association, it is not the title that really matters. It is what that person learned trying to achieve that certification. If there were to be a standardized test for all farriers, we would all have to study. Which is my point of trying to better EVERYONE'S shoeing job.
Brice Woolard, CF
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 14:35 #36

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jason Maki wrote:
if I can do it anyone can.

I don't think you give yourself enough credit but even if anyone could there may be those who don't want to...and those who don't want to employ those to.

Lets face it, with minimal knowledge/training one can trim some pasture taters and maybe nail on the occasional plate and be happy with happy clients and horses. That's not very ambitious but "to each their own" and I think they fill a market need...as inconvenient as it is for those of us who would like to cruise in and get the big bucks for taking 5 minutes to run a rasp over those pasture worn feet. LOL

I'd also point out some of our own history. There's still quite a bit of old blacksmith and farrier tools to be found laying around old farms. For very good reason, we have been, and to an extent still are, a nation of "do-it-yourselfers". It's never been uncommon for the "do-it-yourselfers" to help out a neighbor or pick up some extra income by doing theirs too.

Would it be a terrible thing to have some form of standardization of skills and knolwedge for farriers?
Jason

I've said before that I'd like to see something like a degree program offered. IMO, "offering" is good but "forcing" is bad. Build it and they'll come...if it's of value. Or you can use a gun to force them to come. In which case, it doesn't have to be of value.
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 17:16 #37

mike,
I see your point and in fact have forwarded it in some conversations. I do not think that the free market will create an environment in which the "standard' farrier is required to be highly educated, highly skilled and diverse. We have now the direct result of a free market--vast difference in skill, knowledge, education, and price- many can and have self educated.
However if a two or better yet (imo) a four year degree program was offered the quality of shoeing would rise, yet a market force does not exist for such a program. Most owners are happy with what they have, and those that are not seek out the "specialist' or "expert".
Its the difference bewteen how things are and how things "should" be.
I do not see it changing, but i wish it could.:confused: A standard of education and skill would improve vet farrier relations, the welfare of horses and the lives and bussinesses of farriers in general. (though the added expense might reduce the number of pasture plugs that got regular hoof care)
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 19:14 #38

  • wwhite1973
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A standard of education and skill would improve vet farrier relations,
Jason now that you are at the University I think your head may be in the sand a little. I know you had to run into vets before you got there who actually knew nothing about equine feet. I argue with them all the time over founder cases. Put a keg shoe on backwards, or the best " I have had really good luck putting an egg bar shoe on backwards!":eek: I have one vet though that always pulls me to the side and says, "What are we going to do." There are a few vets in my area that are pretty good but for the most part they know very little about equine feet. They did 4 year degreed programs and internships and what ever and their answer is "Put a keg shoe on backwards'! You are at a university working with probably damn good vets who know equines and you don't have a four year degree do you? Pat yourself on the back because you certainly deserve it and have earned it and don't have to work with the vet who neutered two cats, pulled a calf and delivered a goat before he/she got to your foundered case but didn't bring the x-ray machine because they didn't think they would need it today. The ones who want to be the best are going to work to be the best even with out a degree. If it was required to become a farrier one had to do a four year degree program, the person still has to use what they are taught and HAVE THE DRIVE to do it! I can name three vets in the immediate area that do equines that I wouldn't take my hamster(if I had one) to. I guess what I am trying to say is that you can place all kinds of requirements on farriers but only the person can decide just how good they want to be. I think the only thing that would be different is that horse owners would be paying alot more for hoof care than they are now and there would be a lot less farriers.
Just like some certified farriers work quality has been questioned the same thing would happen with an "educated farrier". People just get lazy. Vets all ready have to be degreed and I think everyone here will agree that there are some good ones and some bad ones. Damn that's the same thing they say about non-degreed, non -certified farriers. The only difference between the good and bad farrier is that the good one really wants to be the best at what they do and the bad one doesn't really care as long he/she can bring home the bacon.

Wayne White
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 09 May 2009 21:20 #39

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jason Maki wrote:
mike,
I see your point and in fact have forwarded it in some conversations. I do not think that the free market will create an environment in which the "standard' farrier is required to be highly educated, highly skilled and diverse.


Licensing wouldn't force that either....and in Illinois, it didn't. Bringing government in just does what you'd expect it to do.
I'm not sure I know what a "standard farrier" is. There are all kinds out there and they have very different businesses.
We have now the direct result of a free market--vast difference in skill, knowledge, education, and price- many can and have self educated.

I don't see that as a problem.
However if a two or better yet (imo) a four year degree program was offered the quality of shoeing would rise, yet a market force does not exist for such a program.

I don't know what the demand would be but I would think the size of the target market could be estimated by the number of those attending existing style farrier schools. I would think that the trade is pretty small compared to many others.

Most owners are happy with what they have, and those that are not seek out the "specialist' or "expert".

If most owners are happy with what they have, I'd submit that as evidence that there isn't a problem. However, there are all kinds of owners who own all kinds of horses, used in all kinds of disciplines and they seek all kinds of farriers. As is, it seems there's room for everybody.

Its the difference bewteen how things are and how things "should" be.
I do not see it changing, but i wish it could.:confused: A standard of education and skill would improve vet farrier relations, the welfare of horses and the lives and bussinesses of farriers in general. (though the added expense might reduce the number of pasture plugs that got regular hoof care)
Jason

Who's to say how "it should be"? Vet/farrier relations seem fine...depending on the vet and farrier, of course. Horses seem to be doing OK and the farriers who want good businesses have them and make a pretty good buck too.
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 10 May 2009 01:28 #40

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Can anybody out there point to any relevent groundbreaking discoveries that have come out of this hallowed institution?
SURE! There was the video they had on their website for quite a while about what happens with "bad shoeing" . Specifically when you shoe a crooked horse even more crooked. They wedged up the lateral sides of a base narrow toe out horse who was already interfering prior to this very scientific demonstration. The put the hoses owner/rider guy on the horse he galloped it down the field. The horse crossed up its front feet and fell headfirst arseoverteakettle, throwing rider in the dirt.

Thats some purdy darn good ground breaking research from the good ole boys down here.They 'broke the ground' with the rider and the horse's head.
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 10 May 2009 02:09 #41

  • Travis Reed
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Are you serious patty….is it on you tube
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 10 May 2009 03:50 #42

  • Rick Talbert
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look up the one they did on contracted heels on youtube. i think it is listed as like contracted heels 5 (or maybe 6). If you can sit through it, the horse is lame as heck afterwards and they tell the owner that the horse must of had an abscess from a hot nail from a previous shoeing and that their shoeing and screwing in a nolan hoof plate must of somehow brought the symptoms of that abscess out (but it was nothing they did to cause it) lol. They could't even see that the horse was lame until they trotted it. What a farce.
Rick Talbert
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 10 May 2009 04:03 #43

  • Rick Talbert
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sorry its listed as the contracted heels part 2 video, i'm getting a kick out of watchin these things
Rick Talbert
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 10 May 2009 05:21 #44

  • Rick Talbert
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Here is some new news on licensing and registration and a few of my opinions as well, I don’t have time to read or post on these threads very often and I really wouldn’t even have read this ****
you might just learn something if you did take the time to read some of the stuff that is posted here and then you could pass it on to your students
if it had not been for someone calling my attention to the fact that the licensing and registration issue is once again being beaten to death on this website and a few others.
it does get beaten to death, your correct. but the bwfa beats it to death too.
First it seems to me the only people that are talking about licensing and registration is our old friends in the AFA.
Please, wasn't it Casey who went on the war path against this licensing and went on a no licensing tour.
The AFA being the only organization that has been hell bent on controlling the farriers since it's inception
.how do ya figure that?
See page 8 of Principles of Horseshoeing II and read the quote from Walt Taylor that was made in I believe 1972 or 1973 in Anvil Magazine. (I have an original copy of that article for any of you who are interested)
I'm interested so why don't you quote it for us.
This Spring at the Equine Affaire in Ohio I talked with the AFA President and President elect and I asked bluntly if licensing and registration was off the table or just back under the table.
So, it was you who were bringing the subject up again, not the AFA?
Well after the song and dance I got
,Ha those guys can't sing or dance!
I believe its under the table and being pushed as hard as ever especially when I was told that “Though officially the current administration is not pursuing it (licensing and registration)
You believe it is being pushed as hard as ever especially because you were told the current administration is not pursuing it? huh.
any board member could bring it to the table, and in the event that would happen the AFA as a 501(c)3 couldn’t lobby but has offered its model for certification and would act as expert witnesses to insure a smooth transition from the current system to the new system” Now that sounds to me like the AFA is at it again.
Nope, that sounds like an open organization that would not restrict a board member from bringing any subject to the table.
Do the math. A smaller BOD is easier to control so the infighting that stopped the process last time would be held to a minimum and the “Walt Taylor manifesto” is that much closer to fruition.
those sneaky guys are smarter than i thought!
Now the friend of mine who encouraged me to read these forums and the other websites that discuss licensing also encouraged me to stay for a BOD meeting of the BWFA while I was down in GA working at the Farriers' National Research Center.
Is that friend preferring to remain anonymous for some reason?
Here is the other side of the coin.One: According to the attorneys present at the meeting, the schools could have and should have shut the AFA down after the Mike Miller report,
How, Why, and on what grounds?
however not more than two schools had the ***** to do it,
tell us which 2 schools they were so we'll know which 2 schools had the whatever that word was, to do it
hell one school owner stood right up in that meeting slammed his fist on the table and stated that he would physically fight to stop this ****.
wow, thats dramatic, who was it, or is that classified?
Of course he accepted the AFA educator of the year award right after that (quite the hypocrite if you ask me).
who could it be????
Two: According to the attorneys present at the BWFA BOD meeting, the AFA is trying to monopolize the industry and with the slander and lies that have been perpetuated about the BWFA and some other individuals in the industry, there is a basis for a class action suit against the AFA and many of its members.
like what? this is gettin good! Is it still slander if its true? What were these lies?
Again that goes from the Luikart days to Walt Taylor, Mike Miller and many more people in the AFA who have sat around and let there mouths write checks their ass can't cover.
Boy thats pretty tough talk there, they musta been sittin around just tellin all kinds of lies huh?
The documentation that has been kept at the FNRC is enormous, and I actually had to volunteer my pickup truck to help haul the files to the attorney's office in Atlanta.
holy smokes thats a buncha lies, a whole dang pickup truck fulla lies.
It goes all the way back to the letters that were sent out to AFA chapters by then AFA President Randy Luikart belittling the testing procedures of the BWFA, and the BWFA in general
can you quote something for us? we all know how rigorous the BWFA testing procedures are, and the bwfa in general, how could anyone belittle such a such a fine association? I bet that hurt some feelings.(
ask Walt Taylor he has seen those letters)
why would we care if walt taylor has seen the letters?
all the way to the present time up to and including much of the **** that is spewed forth on this website and others.
well don't get your panties in a wad over it.
Three: According to the lead attorney, the BWFA has the only recognized research center in the U.S. and has documented 15 years of research on shoes, shoeing, the function of the lower limb different treatments and protocols for shoeing the sound and unsound horse, etc.
you mean that metal building with a few shoes nailed on the wall? or is there another research center?
Thereby making the BWFA, and the Farriers' National Research Center the “Expert” and the expert witness.
now thats just takin it a little far, we've all seen the videos and the TV series and met graduates and BWFA guys and one thing is evident and that is that there is nothing about any of the above that comes anywhere near the word expert. sorry, thats not slander, thats just straight talk.
So far the only thing that has stopped this lawsuit from taking place is the BWFA President Ralph Casey. As Ralph has never bashed the AFA or encouraged the bashing of the AFA or condoned anyone who bashed the AFA, he has been reluctant to really stir things up with a lawsuit.
well he is smarter than he looks.
However, there is a younger more aggressive leadership moving up in the BWFA and they are sick and tired of the **** and, well, honestly some of them are spoiling for a fight.
well I'm sure the AFA is intimidated.
Now, I don’t know how the vote went as I was to busy hauling evidence to Atlanta but I do know that I gave my vote to a BOD member who wants to put this **** to rest once and for all.
why do you have to curse so much? thats not very professional.
I'm sure that it will be awhile before all of the documentation is sorted out but it's being put together and if and when it happens it will be one hell of a lawsuit.
yeah okay
So maybe instead of sitting here in a two bit chat room running your mouths and making every shoer look like a fool, you all need to get your heads down and butts up and shoe some horses.
buddy you have no idea
At least do something productive for our trade like perhaps educate the horse owner, so that they can make an informed choice about what is right for their horse.
If we did that, you might say we were slandering the BWFA
Rick Talbert
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RE:Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing 10 May 2009 12:04 #45

  • Rick Burten
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Rick Talbert wrote:
you might just learn something if you did take the time to read some of the stuff that is posted here and then you could pass it on to your students it does get beaten to death, your correct. but the bwfa beats it to death too.
Rick, the subject is likeVi-agra for Mr. Case. :p
Is that friend preferring to remain anonymous for some reason?
The secret is out. Its Harvey the Invisible Rabbit........
Is it still slander if its true? What were these lies?
Depends on who's telling the tale. He'd tell you but its a secret and if he did tell you he'd have to kill you so the secret didn't get out. Of course, dying from laughter would probably get him off the hook for murder......
holy smokes thats a buncha lies, a whole dang pickup truck fulla lies.
Boggles the mind doesn't it.
we all know how rigorous the BWFA testing procedures are, and the bwfa in general, how could anyone belittle such a such a fine association?
As has already been observed, "The truth is an absolute defense".
well he is smarter than he looks.
Or, is that "sly like a fox"?

I'm sure that it will be awhile before all of the documentation is sorted out but it's being put together and if and when it happens it will be one hell of a lawsuit.
I love it! "If and when"...ROTFLMFAO!! I'm sure that the AFA leadership, and the current, past and future membership of the AFA is losing a lot of sleep worrying about it and have already put their attorney's phone number on speed dial in their cell phones.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
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