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TOPIC: Problems in California

RE:Problems in California 15 May 2009 12:29 #76

  • dave murray
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Blocking anythingis bad enough, but blocking the feet i don't feel is as bad as blocking knees and ankles that are full of gravel and fractures. blocking shins on 2 and 3 year olds is pretty sad as well. and they are doing it every time the horse runs. heel nerving is still legal so i quess that justifys blocking feet.(in the vets mind). they say the testing is so good now that they can detect anything in the horses system. i read somewhere once where a trainer was fined because the horse had 1 nanogram of something in it(can't remember what) and it said if you want to know how much a nanogram is ,well if you filled a swimming pool with salt a nanogram would be one grain of salt.. that's pretty good testing. i could talk all day about things i see every day but it's pointless.i'am just amazed that there isn't more fatal breakdowns then there already is.
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RE:Problems in California 15 May 2009 12:42 #77

  • Mike Ferrara
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dave murray wrote:
i read somewhere once where a trainer was fined because the horse had 1 nanogram of something in it(can't remember what) and it said if you want to know how much a nanogram is ,well if you filled a swimming pool with salt a nanogram would be one grain of salt.. that's pretty good testing.

"nano" is X 10^-9. a nanogram would be 0.000000001 grams.
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RE:Problems in California 15 May 2009 13:57 #78

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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dave murray in gray, stuff deleted

Blocking anythingis bad enough, but blocking the feet i don't feel is as bad as blocking knees and ankles that are full of gravel and fractures. blocking shins on 2 and 3 year olds is pretty sad as well. and they are doing it every time the horse runs. heel nerving is still legal so i quess that justifys blocking feet.(in the vets mind).

IIRC, some US parimutuel jurisdictions allow a horse "nerved" in ONE hoof to run if the fact is listed in the official racing program, but I don't think any jurisdiction allows a horse nerved in two or more to run - even if they did, it would be extremely difficult to find a jock that would take the mount. No US jurisdiction allows a veterinarian (or anyone else) to administer an anesthetic to a horse entered in a race and the presence of an anesthetic in a test absolutely guarantees a trainer an audience with the stewards. :) Track vets usually know how long before a race to discontinue using medications containing prohibited substances, but a "bad test" for the procaine (a local anesthetic) in procaine penicillin in horses running off the farm is not unknown.

they say the testing is so good now that they can detect anything in the horses system.

I sometimes think racing chemists like to circulate rumors about their omniscience in an effort to keep trainers from experimenting, but I don't think anyone has ever figured out a way to test for alcohol blocks without palpating for a response.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Problems in California 15 May 2009 19:56 #79

  • dave murray
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In canada you can have a horse nerved in both front feet. it get's stamped on the foal papers and goes on the nerverd /cryoed list in the race office. it's not very popular today but it's still legal. i had a horse that was nerved and then later when the nerve endings tumored it was cryoed.(liquid nitrogen). it win me a coulpe races and went on to run in the states for a coulpe more years. i sold him to a guy from ohio and then the horse went on to mountineer park were it win a coulpe races..
Tom i'am not talking about blocking with carbocaine, they have blocks now like predef and serapin and vegatable blocks that do not test and are very effective. they usually inject them 24hrs before the race.
not many trainers today even bother with depo because they don't want to spend the money and do a lot of vet work a week or so out from the race and then the race dosn't fill andthey spent all that money for nothing. nowadays they just wait till the horse is in and then do the vet work the day before.
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RE:Problems in California 15 May 2009 20:21 #80

  • mwmyersdvm
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One of the favored blocks is ammonium nitrate (yes, a fertilizer ingredient) and another (which has been outlawed in some jurisdictions) is cobra toxin. Cobra toxin is undetectable by current tests and the only time that there is a crack down on it is if it is discovered in someone's possession on the track.

If you want to make a case for inspecting each horse prior to a race for heel sensation, the 'vegetable block' does not interfere with sensation, only pain. Constantly pounding on injured areas is a sure fire formula for a catastrophic breakdown.
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RE:Problems in California 15 May 2009 20:29 #81

  • dave murray
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i didn't mention the ammonium nitrate because i wasn't sure on the spelling . here we call it ammonium chloride. and it must burn alot lot because after there done these poor bast ards moan and groan and dig up there stalls and then they just lay down and moan. the next day they seem fine and are sound. but i think it's very painful the first few hours.
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RE:Problems in California 16 May 2009 04:25 #82

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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mwmyersdvm in gray

One of the favored blocks is ammonium nitrate (yes, a fertilizer ingredient)


How does it work?

and another (which has been outlawed in some jurisdictions) is cobra toxin. Cobra toxin is undetectable by current tests and the only time that there is a crack down on it is if it is discovered in someone's possession on the track.

Racetrackers can get hold of damn near anything- but cobra venom? That said, if you're not a vet licensed to practice in a particular parimutuel jurisdiction, getting caught with any kind of injectable in your possession will get you in trouble.

If you want to make a case for inspecting each horse prior to a race for heel sensation, the 'vegetable block' does not interfere with sensation, only pain.

I never thought Sarapin worked worth squat. Neither did these fellows:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16868612
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9185090


On the other hand, correctly administered alcohol blocks are extremely effective and they last and last. Are they picking up ethyl alcohol?
Constantly pounding on injured areas is a sure fire formula for a catastrophic breakdown.

We can certainly agree that blocks are a recipe for disaster - and the higher the block, the greater the risk. :(
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Problems in California 16 May 2009 13:21 #83

  • George Geist
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Funny we should be talking about this stuff right now, but the state of Pennsylvania just made a new rule againt injecting joints. Maybe some of the giant ankles became an embarrassment I don't know but effective immediately no intra-articular injections are allowed within 6 days of a race.

IMO making feel-good rules is very nice but they can impress us a lot more by enforcing what they already have. Is no excuse for the state's leading trainer to have as many as 8 drug positives in the same year before any action is taken. Stewards turning a blind eye to things makes all the testing (which cheating trainers are always 3 steps ahead of anyway) and oversight a complete farce.
George
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Come over and say hello.
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RE:Problems in California 16 May 2009 13:52 #84

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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George Geist in gray

Funny we should be talking about this stuff right now, but the state of Pennsylvania just made a new rule againt injecting joints. Maybe some of the giant ankles became an embarrassment I don't know but effective immediately no intra-articular injections are allowed within 6 days of a race.

IMO making feel-good rules is very nice but they can impress us a lot more by enforcing what they already have. Is no excuse for the state's leading trainer to have as many as 8 drug positives in the same year before any action is taken. Stewards turning a blind eye to things makes all the testing (which cheating trainers are always 3 steps ahead of anyway) and oversight a complete farce.


George, I think we've had this conversation before, but I'm a staunch proponent of hay, water and oats and a lifetime ban on anybody who gets a third positive. In Texas and Louisiana, this stance is about as popular as herpes at a hooker's convention, but I think it's the only way the industry will survive.

I've heard all the excuses from the various facets of the industry, I don't pretend to have all the answers, but if the industry hopes to maintain any pretense of integrity, it had damn sure better clean house while it still can.

Getting rid of ALL the drugs would be a good place to start.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Problems in California 16 May 2009 14:07 #85

  • irishcas
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:

(Don't you know somebody in the vet school's procurement office had a hissy when the bill for those vibrators came through?) :)

That is awesome :)
Kim Cassidy
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence." Doug McLeod
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RE:Problems in California 16 May 2009 14:45 #86

  • Jack Evers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Stovall, CJF View Post

(Don't you know somebody in the vet school's procurement office had a hissy when the bill for those vibrators came through?)
That is awesome
__________________

I've played that game, order something like "circulation enhancement device" add the correct catalog number, you don't have to explain anything.

The best for me was once in tight times, the legislature had increased our per diem without giving additional funding, so the Univ was using the old amount. All expense accounts had a disclaimer added to the effect of " I realize that I am entitled to more, but I willingly agree to accept the lesser amount". After one trip with a number of people, our secretary was in an argumentative mood and my disclaimer was typed with the word "unwillingly". It was the only one of about six to slide through unquestioned. Probably coincidence, but it made a good story.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Problems in California 16 May 2009 23:44 #87

  • dave murray
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George Geist wrote:
[Funny we should be talking about this stuff right now, but the state of Pennsylvania just made a new rule againt injecting joints. Maybe some of the giant ankles became an embarrassment I don't know but effective immediately no intra-articular injections are allowed within 6 days of a race.]

IMO making feel-good rules is very nice but they can impress us a lot more by enforcing what they already have. Is no excuse for the state's leading trainer to have as many as 8 drug positives in the same year before any action is taken. Stewards turning a blind eye to things makes all the testing (which cheating trainers are always 3 steps ahead of anyway) and oversight a complete farce.
George

George , thats good news , maybe the rest of the country will follow. although i think it would be a real hard thing to police at least they trying to make improvements. it's a start anyways.
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RE:Problems in California 17 May 2009 13:20 #88

  • mwmyersdvm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Stovall, CJF View Post

(Don't you know somebody in the vet school's procurement office had a hissy when the bill for those vibrators came through?)

Just another bit of drug testing levity to lighten up the thread. I did some testing for the AHSA (before it bacame the USEF) and was discussing the reimbursement of receipts with John Lengel, DVM, then the head of the program. He would even cover a 'reasonable' bar tab (no rounds for the house, etc) and then relayed a really good receipt. One veterinarian had turned in a group of well organized hotel bills, meals etc, until they got to the receipt for the prostitute. While it was disallowed the real question was not why did the veterinarian think he could submit such a receipt, but what prostitute actually provides receipts :)
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RE:Problems in California 17 May 2009 14:29 #89

  • Jack Evers
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Driving across Nevada, where prostitution is legal and receipts might be in order, I have noticed the houses take all major credit cards. I've often wondered how that appears on someones credit card bill. Any replies will be kept confidential.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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RE:Problems in California 20 May 2009 20:00 #90

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
mwmyersdvm in gray

One of the favored blocks is ammonium nitrate (yes, a fertilizer ingredient)


How does it work?

and another (which has been outlawed in some jurisdictions) is cobra toxin. Cobra toxin is undetectable by current tests and the only time that there is a crack down on it is if it is discovered in someone's possession on the track.

Racetrackers can get hold of damn near anything- but cobra venom? That said, if you're not a vet licensed to practice in a particular parimutuel jurisdiction, getting caught with any kind of injectable in your possession will get you in trouble.

If you want to make a case for inspecting each horse prior to a race for heel sensation, the 'vegetable block' does not interfere with sensation, only pain.

I never thought Sarapin worked worth squat. Neither did these fellows:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16868612
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9185090


On the other hand, correctly administered alcohol blocks are extremely effective and they last and last. Are they picking up ethyl alcohol?
Constantly pounding on injured areas is a sure fire formula for a catastrophic breakdown.

We can certainly agree that blocks are a recipe for disaster - and the higher the block, the greater the risk. :(

The way they are alcohol blocking everything in the barn now. It's ridiculus:eek:. I saw a few years ago, a vet block from 8am to 6pm and they were lined up even then. About 30 horses feet were blocked within a 10 hour frame time; not including injections of hocks, ankles, stifles, ect. All shots known to man for these racehorses. He had 3 vets going in all directions, including himself.
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