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TOPIC: Problems in California

RE:Problems in California 15 Nov 2007 04:22 #31

  • dave murray
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i hiaven;t read dr kanes study although i would like to, but it seems only natural to me that since 70% of the horses in the u.s still wear toe grabs that they for sure would have the highest % of breakdowns . and about 25% wear queens plates and 5% in rims. these are just numbers i have come up with from horses that have come my way. from my 30+ years of shoeing on track i find that 90% of the horses that i have been familar with have given fair warning they were about to break down regardless of what type of shoe they are wearing. most trainers now adays just won;t stop on these cripples. they keep pushing for what ever reason be it money or owner pressure whatever. they just don;t seem to turn them out for a rest anymore. i am sure if you could see the vet bills for the last two months on some of these horses that broke down you would be surprized at the amount of work done on these horses. not all of them but most. now that i have vented about trainers and vets i would like to hear some opinons on the lastest style of useing turndowns or bends as they call them now.i see in new york and in maryland now more and more horses wearing stickers and bends on fast racetracks, can this be good?
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RE:Problems in California 15 Nov 2007 05:27 #32

  • Joey Aczon
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Patty,

Did the study happen to mention anything about pidgeon toed horses? I have heard alot of people saying that pidgeon toed horses tend to be stronger/sounder.

It would jive with the whole wide lateral side of the foot. Which so far that is the only hint of actual evidence I've seen that "might" support that theory.
Joey Aczon

Over-specialize and breed in weakness... It's slow death. :cool:

"I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect." — Gibbon
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RE:Problems in California 15 Nov 2007 21:34 #33

calshoer wrote:
He was also shod for a time in aluminum NB ,by a NB trained track farrier called in because the horse was suffering from hoof issues before the triple crown. The NB farrier got him right and running again. :D Patty

You are wrong!..........my friend shod him [2004], straightned him out after the new trainer got him........I was there and I saw it for myself at the track, and when he had passed away [10-04-04], ONLY his "son" was allowed to shoe him before the Derby!! in 2005.

PS he might have been shod NB before, but "Alex" was screwed up when he came to my friend, and he got Alex up and running again. I know my dates, plus the family have the original shoes his father shod him in and of the Derby by his son.
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RE:Problems in California 15 Nov 2007 21:42 #34

dave murray wrote:
i hiaven;t read dr kanes study although i would like to, but it seems only natural to me that since 70% of the horses in the u.s still wear toe grabs that they for sure would have the highest % of breakdowns . and about 25% wear queens plates and 5% in rims. these are just numbers i have come up with from horses that have come my way. from my 30+ years of shoeing on track i find that 90% of the horses that i have been familar with have given fair warning they were about to break down regardless of what type of shoe they are wearing. most trainers now adays just won;t stop on these cripples. they keep pushing for what ever reason be it money or owner pressure whatever. they just don;t seem to turn them out for a rest anymore. i am sure if you could see the vet bills for the last two months on some of these horses that broke down you would be surprized at the amount of work done on these horses. not all of them but most. now that i have vented about trainers and vets i would like to hear some opinons on the lastest style of useing turndowns or bends as they call them now.i see in new york and in maryland now more and more horses wearing stickers and bends on fast racetracks, can this be good?

It has to do with the trainers pushing these horses beyond what they are capable of, and stickers, turn-downs, are ruining the hind ends of theses horses throwing more weight up front causing more pressure on front legs to break down even further!! and these horses are never rested anymore.

I use plains, or wedge plains queens or with lo toe on the hind, and a queen, or a lo toe grab up front with some rims, too. I like inter rims over outer rims.
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 03:35 #35

  • dave murray
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linda when i say stickers and turndowns i mean stickers ( jar caulks) in front and turndowns behind. client of mine had two horses come in from ny, one had turndowns on all fours, the other one had stickers in front (twisted off for shipping i quess) and turn downs behind. we looked at this horses form and his last two starts were on fast tracks.
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 11:55 #36

dave murray wrote:
linda when i say stickers and turndowns i mean stickers ( jar caulks) in front and turndowns behind. client of mine had two horses come in from ny, one had turndowns on all fours, the other one had stickers in front (twisted off for shipping i quess) and turn downs behind. we looked at this horses form and his last two starts were on fast tracks.

Yes, there called jar caulks. Was tired when I typed.
The answer is YES, they are breaking down horses here, too. You can use jar caulks up front or behind [stickers or block & stickers on the hinds] on the dirt, only. At the training tracks that are "not" regulated here and on the farms with tracks, anything goes!!!!!!..............................Linda............
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 15:14 #37

ladyblacksmith wrote:
It has to do with the trainers pushing these horses beyond what they are capable of, and stickers, turn-downs, are ruining the hind ends of theses horses throwing more weight up front causing more pressure on front legs to break down even further!! and these horses are never rested anymore.

I use plains, or wedge plains queens or with lo toe on the hind, and a queen, or a lo toe grab up front with some rims, too. I like inter rims over outer rims.

Linda,why do you say stickers and blocks ruin hind ends? Would you feel better if they were banned? What else don't you like? As far as trainers pushing horses,
Tell me something,why is your claim to fame "RACEHORSES"? Then make fun of the trainers?
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 17:31 #38

  • calshoer
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You are wrong!..........my friend shod him [2004], straightned him out after the new trainer got him........I was there and I saw it for myself at the track, and when he had passed away [10-04-04], ONLY his "son" was allowed to shoe him before the Derby!! in 2005.
Sorry, you are apparently misinformed. I *personally know* the shoer who was called in prior to the Arkansas Derby to get this horses feet straightened out. Unlike your unnamed mysterious mentor and his son,this farrier has a name. It is Travis Anderson, son of Merlin Anderson from Cowtown Horseshoeing school in Montana. I know from them first hand that Travis was called in to shoe that horse so he could train prior to that race. You can call Travis or his dad if you want to check it out.
Patty
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 17:37 #39

  • calshoer
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Originally Posted by dave murray
i hiaven;t read dr kanes study although i would like to, but it seems only natural to me that since 70% of the horses in the u.s still wear toe grabs that they for sure would have the highest % of breakdowns . and about 25% wear queens plates and 5% in rims. these are just numbers
They figured all that in.

No , they did not look at pigeon toes as a factor. (And rarely will you find a pigeon toed horse racing much anyway.)
Patty
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 17:47 #40

  • calshoer
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here are some references to the Kane studies: Contact address for Dr. Albert J Kane
Equine Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine anmd Biomedical sciences, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, Colorado, 80503-1679

He workd with DR. Susan Stover DVM PHd, , Ian Gardner,BVSc,MPVM,Phd

How they measured hoof balance' was presented as:
"A new technique for the Quantitative Measurement of Hoof Balance" , 13th annual Bluegrass Laminitis Symposium, 1999,

Same venue same year , he presented: "Hoof Balance Associated with Catastrophic Injury of Thoroughbred Racehorses"
The looked at toe length,
sole length,
widest hoof width,
hoof 'width to length' ratio,
heel width,base of frog width, frog widh to length ratio, frog area,
ground surface circumferance,
ground surface area,
toe angle, heel angle, toe heel angle difference,
hoof base of support,
toe to frog distance,
toe to widest width,
lateral and medial wall angles,
lateral and medial wall angle diference,
bulb heights(both, and difference)
lateral and medial ground surface width,
lateral and medial ground surface width difference,
frog to lateral wall distance (both sides and difference)
lateral and medial sole area
X length difference
Y length difference
Z length difference
total wall length difference .

Thank god for computers for calculating these kind of things ...
Patty
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 18:06 #41

  • calshoer
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The first time I saw the breakdown study on toe grabs was at the 1997 AFA convention, titled "The effects of toe grabs on Racehorse Breakdown" . Dr Kane was still at UC Davis at that time .

For reference, The original papers titles are:
"Horseshoe Characteristics as Possible Risk Factors in Fatal Musculoskeletal Injury of Thoroughbred Racehorses."
published American Journal of Veterinary Research, 1996, 57:1147-1152


"Post Mortem Evaluation of Homotypic Variation In Horseshoe Characteristics of 201 Thoroughbred Racehorses" published in AJVR, 1996, 57:1141-1146

Patty
Patty Stiller CNBF,CLS
www.hoofcareonline.com
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RE:Problems in California 16 Nov 2007 21:29 #42

Patty: Glad you came forward with all the information you have posted. Saying that toe graps have no effect to the breakdowns of TB horse's has been proven beyond a doubt is false. I do not believe anyone should belittle Dr. Stover or Dr. Krane because they have not been shoeing on the track for 17 years. Doesn't hold water.
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RE:Problems in California 17 Nov 2007 02:03 #43

calshoer wrote:
Sorry, you are apparently misinformed. I *personally know* the shoer who was called in prior to the Arkansas Derby to get this horses feet straightened out. Unlike your unnamed mysterious mentor and his son,this farrier has a name. It is Travis Anderson, son of Merlin Anderson from Cowtown Horseshoeing school in Montana. I know from them first hand that Travis was called in to shoe that horse so he could train prior to that race. You can call Travis or his dad if you want to check it out.
Patty

The family has asked me NOT to say his name out of respect.
I was at the track, and I was there at the racetrack, when he was shoeing the horse, and his son the horse for the Derby.....They have the shoes, pictures to prove it, and there is nothing else to say.
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RE:Problems in California 17 Nov 2007 02:18 #44

Tommy Sands wrote:
Patty: Glad you came forward with all the information you have posted. Saying that toe graps have no effect to the breakdowns of TB horse's has been proven beyond a doubt is false. I do not believe anyone should belittle Dr. Stover or Dr. Krane because they have not been shoeing on the track for 17 years. Doesn't hold water.

It is when vets play farrier, and are not farriers who have shod at the track, can forge, swedge, and take the Union test, and have applied these avenues for many years; and understand the TRACK MENTALITY of the racetrack world.
It's not about belittling: it's about not taking racing as a whole, and understanding the many difficult positions that the platers are made to face in everyday situations! which the outside world does not understand.
Example: NOT getting paid, rank and dangerous horses to shoe, trainers who will fire you for not putting on the shoes they want, even if means breaking down the horse!, claimed horses and not getting paid for the last shoe job, expense of racing plates and nails to keeping going till we do get paid. It is not hard to for a trainer to run up a 15,000 shoeing bill, and then pull stakes, and move. Owners refusing to pay the trainer, vet bills, horseshoer, feed man, stall rent at the track, and paying the hired help, jockeys, exersize riders, hotwalkers, and grooms, and list goes on.
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RE:Problems in California 17 Nov 2007 02:26 #45

Just passin through~ wrote:
Linda,why do you say stickers and blocks ruin hind ends? Would you feel better if they were banned? What else don't you like? As far as trainers pushing horses,
Tell me something,why is your claim to fame "RACEHORSES"? Then make fun of the trainers?

Stickers and blocks can be hard on a horse hind end. They shouldn't totally be band, but should be used with caution. Blocks on the hind will help a horse with a bad hind end, sometimes. What should be banned on all training tracks around here is the use of Quarter horse toe-grabs on Thoroughbreds. Some trainers use them on 2 yrs olds just starting out. That why I don't have respect for a trainer who puts money ahead of the horse's wellfare.
________
Lovely Wendie99
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