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TOPIC: Problems in California

RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 11:57 #16

dave murray wrote:
we all know that anything that delays breakover is detrimental to the horse, be it toe grabs or long toes or both. however i feel that as long as the trainers and vets keep injecting sore horses with cortizone and blocks race after race sooner or later something is going to break. but these new poly tracks seem to have almost doubled the breakdowns. i agree with patty on the thought that there is to much rebound. i have walked out on the surface at woodbine and keenland and the new track in erie pa. although they are all a little different they react the same. when i think of a horse running over these tracks ithink of it as us trying to run across a mattress or a trampoline ,not quiet as severe but you get the picture. iknow the tracks are aware of these problems and are trying to come up with some answers , lets hope they can.

This is what I am talking about. All the sore horses injected over and over again to win another race. NOT having qualified farriers is the other problem. If trainer A wants a horse shod with longer toes, and farrier X says NO; then Trainer gets farrier Y to do his horses HIS way.

What we need to is, at the day of the race, the paddock blacksmith to check not only what shoes the horses are racing in, BUT should have track requirements that the toes cannot be of a certain length with underslung heels. Just like the state vet comes out the day of the race and jogs the horse in the morning in the shedrow to make sure his is sound for racing. The same thing should be required for racing in the shoeing part.
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 12:13 #17

Rick Burten wrote:
Linda,

While I don't disagree with you, I think that there has been enough research and a large enough body of evidence to indict toe grabs as perhaps the number one factor in breakdowns, whether catastrophic or not.

My friend who taught me to shoe; shod the best in the country. He WAS the best shoer in the country, and of all time, ever.
He shod with lo toes up front, plains behind; mostly, and he shod on a 4 week shedule, short toes with a heel. MOST of these horses were made perfectly sound and had long lasting racing careers as long as he shod them himself. He proved over and over again, that it is the shoeing and the trimming that makes a race horse comfortable to have lo toe grabs and toe grabs behind!!!

FYI: A $75,000 claiming horse who had not been shod correctly was given to him to correct the shoeing. This horse after a year with toe-grabs was shod right; this little horse when off to win the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and 2nd in the Belmont in 2005. The trainer won the Eclipse award, ect. The horse is now standing at stud in Kentucky. His name is .......Afleet Alex!
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 12:20 #18

ladyblacksmith wrote:
My friend who taught me to shoe; shod the best in the country. He WAS the best shoer in the country, and of all time, ever.
He shod with lo toes up front, plains behind; mostly, and he shod on a 4 week shedule, short toes with a heel. MOST of these horses were made perfectly sound and had long lasting racing careers as long as he shod them himself. He proved over and over again, that it is the shoeing and the trimming that makes a race horse comfortable to have lo toe grabs and toe grabs behind!!!

FYI: A $75,000 claiming horse who had not been shod correctly was given to him to correct the shoeing. This horse after a year with toe-grabs was shod right; this little horse when off to win the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and 2nd in the Belmont in 2005. The trainer won the Eclipse award, ect. The horse is now standing at stud in Kentucky. His name is .......Afleet Alex!

This is a pretty bold and IMO absurd claim. Why don't you name your "freind"?
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 13:16 #19

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ladyblacksmith wrote:
FYI: A $75,000 claiming horse who had not been shod correctly was given to him to correct the shoeing. This horse after a year with toe-grabs was shod right; this little horse when off to win the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and 2nd in the Belmont in 2005.
Maybe if he'd been shod correctly, he'd have won the Belmont too? Da-mn toe grabs anyway. Just kidding, just kidding.
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 17:33 #20

  • T.N. Trosin
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
My friend who taught me to shoe; shod the best in the country. He WAS the best shoer in the country, and of all time, ever.

Thats imposiable, everybody knows my dad was the best race plater. :p

Next, a slight correction, Giacomo won the derby that year Afleet Alex was third.

Linda, yippy skip whoever this guy is he is not the first nor will he be the last to turn a racehorse around. If he just turned Afleet Alex around what do you say about the guy (not dad) who shod Silver Charm, Real Quiet and Charismatic. Three in a row, thats pretty good. Same guy shod the first three under the Derby wire the year Real Quiet won, not bad either.

If you go by statistic alone sounds like this guy is way better than your master.

At any rate it ain't the man it's the horse, not saying that a person can't reverse the fortunes of a horse through shoeing, I've seen what a proper set of shoes can do for a horse, but if that horse isn't in the right situation period he wins inspite of you and not becuse of you.

Rick Burten wrote:
To be accurate, we should compare the number of breakdowns by age, ***, track conditions, shoeing, when they occurred(racing or training), racing experience, etc., over the same time period over a number of years.

This is part of what I was saying when I refered to the "junk sicence" that the CHRB relied on when it made it's rule changes. I have seen neither Dr. Kane's study in full nor Dr. Stover's study in full but from the bits and pieces that have been distributed either through the media or the CHRB, I find it hard to believe that any of what Rick eliuded to or even a constitant breeding patern was studdied. Further, I find it hard to believe that even so much as hoof balance was studdied.

We as farriers are out here groping in the dark on this subject becuse the studies that have been done on FMSBD have not been distributed to our trade, and platers have been excluded from the process. Meanwhile, horses still break down dispite man's best intentions.
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 22:22 #21

Crazyshoer wrote:
This is a pretty bold and IMO absurd claim. Why don't you name your "freind"?

He passed away 3 years, and the family refuses to let me mention his name.
He is my daughter's father, and I have to respect their wishes. Also, his son shod Afeet Alex, and his now son is shoeing racehorses. His brother also shoes racehorses, and others in the family are into the breeding, training, were jockeys and riders.
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 22:28 #22

T.N. Trosin wrote:
Thats imposiable, everybody knows my dad was the best race plater. :p

Next, a slight correction, Giacomo won the derby that year Afleet Alex was third.

Linda, yippy skip whoever this guy is he is not the first nor will he be the last to turn a racehorse around. If he just turned Afleet Alex around what do you say about the guy (not dad) who shod Silver Charm, Real Quiet and Charismatic. Three in a row, thats pretty good. Same guy shod the first three under the Derby wire the year Real Quiet won, not bad either.

If you go by statistic alone sounds like this guy is way better than your master.

At any rate it ain't the man it's the horse, not saying that a person can't reverse the fortunes of a horse through shoeing, I've seen what a proper set of shoes can do for a horse, but if that horse isn't in the right situation period he wins inspite of you and not becuse of you.



This is part of what I was saying when I refered to the "junk sicence" that the CHRB relied on when it made it's rule changes. I have seen neither Dr. Kane's study in full nor Dr. Stover's study in full but from the bits and pieces that have been distributed either through the media or the CHRB, I find it hard to believe that any of what Rick eliuded to or even a constitant breeding patern was studdied. Further, I find it hard to believe that even so much as hoof balance was studdied.

We as farriers are out here groping in the dark on this subject becuse the studies that have been done on FMSBD have not been distributed to our trade, and platers have been excluded from the process. Meanwhile, horses still break down dispite man's best intentions.

Your dad knows of him, and he has shod many, many famous horses, including "Marcianna" who came in 6th in the preakness, a few years back, out of Two Punch. He shod for over 40 years in the business.

You are right!! that platers have been excluded from the process!!!

PS. He was 3rd in the Breeder's cup or was it the Belmont?
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 22:44 #23

George Geist;81050 wrote:
Many thanks to Fran Jurga for posting this on her website

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/11/breakdowns-mar-first-weeks-of-racing-on.html

California has traditionally been in the forefront of new ideas. This year they have quite predictably dove headfirst into the new racing surface mania sweeping the country.

It would appear that they've had some setbacks out there.

How about it Tom Trosin, what are you guys going to do about this latest grave problem?!:confused:

Anybody have any comments on this? George


FROM THE AMERICAN FARRIERS JOURNAL:

In Briefings:

Shoeing Changes Blamed for Reduced Lifetime Racing Starts:

Turn the calendar back to 1957 and the typical TB averaged 40 lifetime racing starts. Yet the average number the TB racing starts has dropped to fewer than 14 today, says Bobby Trussell, co-owner of Walmac Farm near Lexington, KY Sharing his thoughts recently with readers of the The Blood Horse, Trussell doesn't buy the conventional wisdom that the number of reduced racing starts is due to the breed becoming more fragile, a change in track surfaces or growing concerns about soundness issues.

Instead, Trussell believes it's due to the over medication of horses and changes in the way horses are shod. He says today's horses don't have as much HEEL, leading to more crushed heel syndrome problems. He's convinced that keeping the coffin bone parallel to the ground reduces hock, stifle, and hip problems. To prove his point, he says pictures of old-time horses, show LESS TOE and MUCH MORE HEEL, especially in the HIND LIMBS.

Giving all credits to the AFA Magazine 2008 Directory, and Mr. Trussell's comment's of these 2 paragraphs listed above.


I agree with him totally. ....................................Linda.................
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RE:Problems in California 14 Nov 2007 01:30 #24

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ladyblacksmith wrote:
George Geist;81050 wrote:
He's convinced that keeping the coffin bone parallel to the ground reduces hock, stifle, and hip problems. To prove his point, he says pictures of old-time horses, show LESS TOE and MUCH MORE HEEL, especially in the HIND LIMBS.
I agree with him totally. ....................................Linda.................

Wouldn't high heels make the p3 less parallel to the ground?

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RE:Problems in California 14 Nov 2007 17:03 #25

  • tbloomer
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I think that sometimes we get our terminology mixed up a little, ie. high heels vs. long heels.

When the horn tubules in the heels are too long they begin to distort and run forward and inward. The longer the heel horn is allowed to grow the more leverage is applied to bending forward and inward.

Then the long heel butress begins to crush the seat of corn and the internal structures in the back end of the foot begin to atrophy due to lack of circulation from excess pressure on internal structures - due to the crushing leverage of long heel horn.

Then folks start complaining that the horse doesn't grow any heel - Duh! The circulation is comprimized. The lamina of the bars and heel quarters is crushed under the weight of the horse bearing down on those long - now horizontal horn tubules. Coronary band has a bump in the quarters and then takes a nose dive to the ground at "where we think" the heel butresses are.

Get a magnifying glass and LOOK at the horn tubules. Yea, go ahead and stick a wedge pad under there. Now you're really standing on that lever, but hey - we got the HPA right!

The lucky ones grow a huge fat frog. The unlucky ones lose their frog.

"A short heel is a strong heel." - Mitch Taylor, CJF
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Problems in California 14 Nov 2007 18:19 #26

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tbloomer wrote:
Get a magnifying glass and LOOK at the horn tubules.
Shouldn't need a magnifying glass. I just use my bifocals.:D Besides, if you can't tell what the tubules are doing just by looking at them, then perhaps you should take up underwater basket weaving.
Yea, go ahead and stick a wedge pad under there. Now you're really standing on that lever, but hey - we got the HPA right!
Works if you first remove the bent tubules/horn and then also provide mechanical support for the frog, bars and commissures.
The lucky ones grow a huge fat frog.
They ain't so lucky if that fat frog is just that. :eek: :)
"A short heel is a strong heel." - Mitch Taylor, CJF
It Depends - Rick Burten, CJF
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
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RE:Problems in California 14 Nov 2007 22:29 #27

Bill Adams wrote:
ladyblacksmith;81827 wrote:

Wouldn't high heels make the p3 less parallel to the ground?

NO, you need a short strong heel, and under the cannon bone. You shoe to the conformation the horse and of the hoof, in general.

Tom Bloomer is right, and what he explained is what I was taught, as well.

PS He says it better than I! :-)
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RE:Problems in California 15 Nov 2007 00:30 #28

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FYI: A $75,000 claiming horse who had not been shod correctly was given to him to correct the shoeing. This horse after a year with toe-grabs was shod right; this little horse when off to win the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and 2nd in the Belmont in 2005. The trainer won the Eclipse award, ect. The horse is now standing at stud in Kentucky. His name is .......Afleet Alex!
He was also shod for a time in aluminum NB ,by a NB trained track farrier called in because the horse was suffering from hoof issues before the triple crown. The NB farrier got him right and running again. :D Patty
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RE:Problems in California 15 Nov 2007 00:54 #29

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This is part of what I was saying when I refered to the "junk sicence" that the CHRB relied on when it made it's rule changes. I have seen neither Dr. Kane's study in full nor Dr. Stover's study in full but from the bits and pieces that have been distributed either through the media or the CHRB, I find it hard to believe that any of what Rick eliuded to or even a constitant breeding patern was studdied. Further, I find it hard to believe that even so much as hoof balance was studdied.
I have seen Dr Kane's study in it's entirety,as he presented it in different several venues and I have notes. As well as the toe grabs, the hoof ground surface "symmetery" was measured,via photos of the feet including the soles. Via that, the medial lateral sole surface area ratios were also computed and compared to the number of breakdowns. It turned out that the more equal the two sides of the hoof,the greater the breakdowns, compared to when the lateral side was slightly wider, with less breakdowns.

They also had a control group, which was all the horses put down for reasons other than catastrophic breakdown, and documented the same things on them.
It was a pretty thorough look, statistically .
And that is all it is....statistics, which compare the incidence of one thing to another. It is NOT scientific experimentation, which is different.
I didn't see too many any holes in it as a statistical study, and I am usually quick to tear studies apart looking for flaws.
And the numbers weren't just suggestive of a relatinship of toe grabs to breakdowns, they were *staggering*.
As well, it also was interestng that those horses with NO added traction, such as in queens plates ,had a slightly higher breakdown rate too. That suggests need for SOME added traction , just not all at the toe.
The horses with the least breakdowns were those in outer or inner rims.

Something the researchers on that project could still do with the photo documentation they have, is to evalute the 'front to back' sole ratios (widest part to toe and heel) of all those same feet, enter it into the copmputer and see what comes up. That would be interesting, and may or may not bring to light something besides the toe grabs as a main factor in these breakdowns.
Patty
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RE:Problems in California 15 Nov 2007 01:53 #30

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Patty,

Did Dr. Kane's study say anything about track conditions? Were breakdowns studied only on good or fast track conditions or were all conditions included in the study? The sad thing is I've seen sound horses breakdown on good conditioned tracks. Thinking about it the variables would be enormous.


Tony
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