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TOPIC: Problems in California

Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 00:24 #1

  • George Geist
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Many thanks to Fran Jurga for posting this on her website

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/11/breakdowns-mar-first-weeks-of-racing-on.html

California has traditionally been in the forefront of new ideas. This year they have quite predictably dove headfirst into the new racing surface mania sweeping the country.

It would appear that they've had some setbacks out there.

How about it Tom Trosin, what are you guys going to do about this latest grave problem?!:confused:

Anybody have any comments on this?
George
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RE:Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 01:55 #2

George Geist wrote:
Many thanks to Fran Jurga for posting this on her website

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/11/breakdowns-mar-first-weeks-of-racing-on.html

California has traditionally been in the forefront of new ideas. This year they have quite predictably dove headfirst into the new racing surface mania sweeping the country.

It would appear that they've had some setbacks out there.

How about it Tom Trosin, what are you guys going to do about this latest grave problem?!:confused:

Anybody have any comments on this?
George


Wow!................maybe toe grabs have their purpose after all.?!?!? c. 1874 till now?

It's not so much the "Use" of the toe-grab; as much as, "How" you shoe the horse with a toe grab to keep injuries to a minimum!!! That's what JHU test is for!!!

The toe grab is used to get a hold of the track. If the horse can't get a hold of the track; it slips and slides, and there is where lies your injuries on the dirt track, whether it's fast, cuppy, sloppy, ect.
Turf is different, and only queens or XLT queens plates {no toe grabs} are used.
Timber/steeplechase racing can use outer rims or queen plates.
..................................Linda........................
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RE:Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 02:41 #3

  • T.N. Trosin
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I unlike the CHRB don't make knee jerk decisions based on junk science, nor am I shoeing any thoroughbreds at the moment so the grab rules don't effect me personally, so I don't know what I am supposed to do about this George.

It will be interesting to see what the CHRB and the track owners do tho.
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RE:Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 03:18 #4

  • George Geist
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T.N. Trosin wrote:
I unlike the CHRB don't make knee jerk decisions based on junk science, nor am I shoeing any thoroughbreds at the moment so the grab rules don't effect me personally, so I don't know what I am supposed to do about this George.

It will be interesting to see what the CHRB and the track owners do tho.
Actually, good to my word I'm not discussing the toe grab issue. I'm not sure if that can even be a factor in this anyway. What I had in mind was the new racing surfaces.

These new surfaces were supposed to minimize catasrophic injury. Proponents of it have been shouting from the mountaintops about how great it is and was the future of racing. If this is any indicator there might not be any future racing.:rolleyes:

Just what n hell is more natural than dirt anyway?

I was somewhat sceptical in the beginning and really hated to see tracks invest so much money in this stuff without more research. (money which could have gone to horsemen by the way)

Reminds me a lot of the astroturf insanity that went on in the '70s with human sports. took them 30 years but you dont see any new playing fields being carpeted over anymore do you? Be interesting to know just how many athletes bodies were needlessly ruined by that stuff over the years.

Ok, nuff said. Somebody else want up on the soapbox?
George
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RE:Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 12:20 #5

  • reillyshoe
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Actually George, Field Turf has gone in in several stadiums recently, including a mid season switch in Gillette Stadium (home of the undefeated Patriots).

I do agree that more research would have been warranted before making changes, but I wish the money went into examining the surface or the effect of shoes before going into the pockets of horsemen.
P
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RE:Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 12:21 #6

George Geist wrote:
Actually, good to my word I'm not discussing the toe grab issue. I'm not sure if that can even be a factor in this anyway. What I had in mind was the new racing surfaces.

These new surfaces were supposed to minimize catasrophic injury. Proponents of it have been shouting from the mountaintops about how great it is and was the future of racing. If this is any indicator there might not be any future racing.:rolleyes:

Just what n hell is more natural than dirt anyway?

I was somewhat sceptical in the beginning and really hated to see tracks invest so much money in this stuff without more research. (money which could have gone to horsemen by the way)

Reminds me a lot of the astroturf insanity that went on in the '70s with human sports. took them 30 years but you dont see any new playing fields being carpeted over anymore do you? Be interesting to know just how many athletes bodies were needlessly ruined by that stuff over the years.

Ok, nuff said. Somebody else want up on the soapbox?
George

I'll talk about the toe grab issue then.........

Before they counted their Golden Calf as a miracal cure for break downs; they should have done a controled study of with and without toe grabs on the NEW surface to deterimined if it would work or not, with TB's of all ages and racing statis in the study.
The study would include on just jogging, training regular basis, breezing out, 2 minute lick, and work out, and out right racing against each other in a controlled study.
They condemned toe grabs on an OLD dirt track that needed to be resurfaced; no wonder there were break downs!
This should have been handled with the Jockey Club between the racetrack horseshoers, the Union, and a discussion with track management with track surfacing, trainers, owners, breeders, vets, and the stewards across the country as a whole. Not a few elite persons who NEVER shod a TB racehorse for a lifetime, or know about farrier science in detail.

Now we have more breaksdowns than ever, which only fuels the fire of PETA and other "EXTREME radical animal rights activists" that would love to see racing banned in this country forever, and it's preys opon the general non-informed public on racing and the $90 billion dollar horse industry as a whole, which helps our agricultural economy stay strong.
.........................................................Linda..................
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RE:Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 13:23 #7

  • dave murray
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just a quick reply as i am off to work but woodbine racetrack in toronto has had poly track for well over a year now and have had nothung but problems with it although they try to keep it hush hush there breakdowns have increased dramatically. at first you could'nt use to grabs but after about 2 months they changed back to you could use them, just as many breakdowns with or without them.
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RE:Problems in California 08 Nov 2007 14:52 #8

Overall problems that track people have found with the poly-track, is that it has too much grip. There is a tremendous amount of non-slip compared to a dirt track. For those would do not believe that toe grabs cause a problem. I would suggest that you check with Dr Suzan Stover and the research people at University of Davis in CA. This study has been going on for at least ten years. Every horse that is put down because of an injury on the track was studied by Dr Stovers team. It is a proven, by extensive research that toe grabs are detrimental to the race horse. Don't go by what I'm saying - contact Dr Stoverr the Jockey Club. Now they have a new problem by these poly tracks and maybe if you did not run horse at 18 months as 2 year olds they last longer. Money talks, bottom line
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RE:Problems in California 09 Nov 2007 00:17 #9

Tommy Sands wrote:
Overall problems that track people have found with the poly-track, is that it has too much grip. There is a tremendous amount of non-slip compared to a dirt track. For those would do not believe that toe grabs cause a problem. I would suggest that you check with Dr Suzan Stover and the research people at University of Davis in CA. This study has been going on for at least ten years. Every horse that is put down because of an injury on the track was studied by Dr Stovers team. It is a proven, by extensive research that toe grabs are detrimental to the race horse. Don't go by what I'm saying - contact Dr Stoverr the Jockey Club. Now they have a new problem by these poly tracks and maybe if you did not run horse at 18 months as 2 year olds they last longer. Money talks, bottom line

It is "how" you shoe the horse, and how often you shoe the horse. We need
"qualified journeyman horseshoers" who know how to shoe a race horse correctly!! As it stands now; any one can go in and shoe a horse and get their licience today, since they **** down the standards of shoeing at the track!!!! Even owners can shoe their own horse without any licience.
The Union test diswayed a lot of fly by nite 90 day wonder farriers, who couldn't shoe the race horse.
Also, we don't have horseman anymore, trainers giving more and more drugs, not legging up the horse, or getting totally fit for racing. Also, the breeding has been **** down to any horse bred, destroying conformation, temperment, ect. We have way to many rats and not enough well bred horses at the track.
You are putting all the BLAME on the use of toe-grabs, instead of revamping the whole racing industry and making improvements in ALL areas of this industry.
When Dr. Stoverr is a journeyman horseshoer, taking the JHU test, and shod race horses for the last 17 years, then that person can say anything about the use of toe-grabs, until then their study is useless and moot. That's what you get when you have a vet playing farrier! and I don't care what anyone says, because I'll go up against any vet on shoeing racehorses with toe grabs!

Example: I shod a awsome stallion with XLT queens front, with block heels hind, size 5. Ran, never hit, sound, and won, and hit the board several times. Then went to another track, farrier put on sz 7 queens up front with plains behind and cut ALL THE HEELS DOWN, AND left a 4 inch toe, and was just shod before race. He hit, broke down, and been return to the barn where I shod him just 9 weeks earlier. I took off an inch to toe, left what I could of the heel, and put a wide web "0" with wedge for relief of bowed tendons on both front legs.
It's got to do with *&%*& lousy shoeing on our tracks today!!! Let's get that under control FIRST, then let's find out if toe-grabs are a detriment.

This is "food for thought". .....Linda.....
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RE:Problems in California 12 Nov 2007 01:49 #10

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just a quick reply as i am off to work but woodbine racetrack in toronto has had poly track for well over a year now and have had nothung but problems with it although they try to keep it hush hush there breakdowns have increased dramatically. at first you could'nt use to grabs but after about 2 months they changed back to you could use them, just as many breakdowns with or without them.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Logically ,the lack of grabs should not be causing MORE breakdowns, since MANY horses have run without toe grabs long before they were banned on all the horses in a race. .And statstically,(which is accurately recorded numbers, not a scienitific experiement) those horses in grabs were found to have broke down MORE than those without. Facts is facts. Numbers is numbers. Therefore, (*now* lets talks science) the "scienitific variable" here is the new surface.
Horses are built with a very good rebound/ spring system. Adding another one under their feet might be screwing things up.
Patty
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RE:Problems in California 12 Nov 2007 01:52 #11

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It's got to do with *&%*& lousy shoeing on our tracks today!!! Let's get that under control FIRST, then let's find out if toe-grabs are a detriment.

This is "food for thought". .....Linda.....
No one will dispute theat lousy shoeing is a detriment and contributes ot breakdowns BUT th toe grab factor *has* been looked at, and the the numbers were indisputable.
Patty
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RE:Problems in California 12 Nov 2007 13:42 #12

  • Rick Burten
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To be accurate, we should compare the number of breakdowns by age, ***, track conditions, shoeing, when they occurred(racing or training), racing experience, etc., over the same time period over a number of years.
Rick Burten PF

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RE:Problems in California 12 Nov 2007 22:57 #13

Rick Burten wrote:
To be accurate, we should compare the number of breakdowns by age, ***, track conditions, shoeing, when they occurred(racing or training), racing experience, etc., over the same time period over a number of years.

Thank you very much Rick.

It's a combinations of everything going on in the racing industry as a "whole"!!
Blaming everything on toe-grabs is just a quick cure, and sweeping everything under the rug on the problems and realities of this industry needs revamping across the nation, starting with having better quailified journeyman horseshoers on our tracks.
This would be a start to protecting the safety of our jockeys and our excersize riders, and of the horses training in this sport.
.........................................Sincerely,........Linda...........
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RE:Problems in California 12 Nov 2007 23:29 #14

  • Rick Burten
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Linda,

While I don't disagree with you, I think that there has been enough research and a large enough body of evidence to indict toe grabs as perhaps the number one factor in breakdowns, whether catastrophic or not.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
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RE:Problems in California 13 Nov 2007 01:42 #15

  • dave murray
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we all know that anything that delays breakover is detrimental to the horse, be it toe grabs or long toes or both. however i feel that as long as the trainers and vets keep injecting sore horses with cortizone and blocks race after race sooner or later something is going to break. but these new poly tracks seem to have almost doubled the breakdowns. i agree with patty on the thought that there is to much rebound. i have walked out on the surface at woodbine and keenland and the new track in erie pa. although they are all a little different they react the same. when i think of a horse running over these tracks ithink of it as us trying to run across a mattress or a trampoline ,not quiet as severe but you get the picture. iknow the tracks are aware of these problems and are trying to come up with some answers , lets hope they can.
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