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TOPIC: JHU & AFA

RE:JHU & AFA 03 Aug 2007 16:59 #151

  • T.N. Trosin
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George Geist wrote:
WHOA, TIME OUT! JHU does no negotiating of pay or anything of the kind. Their members are independent businessmen who set their own prices just like everybody else. The only thing they'll negotiate on the track is for payment to the guy who works the paddock. To suggest anything else is at best factually innaccurate and at worst a damn lie!
George

While I will continue to try to stay out of this, I do have to say at least from the the perspective out here, the Farrier unions (JHU/SCPG) don't "negotiate" prices, they, as a union agree on a price to be charged by their members but that isn't to say that guys won't charge what they want over or under the union price.
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RE:JHU & AFA 03 Aug 2007 20:30 #152

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
was your primary concern the corporate bottom line and its impact on the stockholders?
Yes, so. That was the role I was in and I am proud of doing the job to the best of my ability. That is of course what I agreed to do.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
"Mucking up the works?" What'n hell does that mean?
If you really knew what you are talking about in re unions you would know that the perceived impact on wages and benefits is only the tip of the iceberg in regard the real cost of a unionized labor force. The cost in time, productivity, legal fees, etc to companies that have their labor forces organized far exceeds the additional costs in wages, benefits, etc...

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
If your premise were valid, then every company in those sectors "threatened" by unionization would be offering wages and benefits in accord with union demands. It doesn't happen.
Your perception not mine. I suspect that my view is slightly more informed that yours unless you have been in the executive suite of a major corporation and have been withholding that information.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Anyone who managed to stay awake during American History and Eco 101 likely has a fair grasp of the impact of both union activity and management avarice on the country's economy.
Hmmm. Then what was your problem.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Are you unaware that a widget can stay on the shelf 'til hell freezes over, but a crop will rot in the field unless it's harvested on a timely basis?
No, but why does it matter. You haven’t made a point germane to my original supposition that union activities have had a positive impact on non-union wages and benefits. Suppositions that I believe you erroneously see as invalid.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
You also forgot to mention that harvest workers have always been paid on the basis of the amount harvested - boxes, sacks, pounds, bunches, etc. - never on an hourly basis.
No, I have done no such thing. I have ignored your statement for the tripe that I see it as being. Every farm worker contract that I reviewed in CA the 70’s and 80's had a guaranteed minimum hourly wage written into it. If worker piece production did not equal the guaranteed minimum they got the hourly rate.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
reality for an objective observer exists somewhere in the middle.
On this at least we can agree.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
As you might expect, the region relies heavily on Hispanic migrant labor; and, unlike yourself, I've seen both sides of the issues, up close and personal.
You with your air if supposed infallibility assume too much. You are living up to the first half of the old saying in regard the word “assume”.

When in Jr. High I, like many other country kids, picked g****s along side those self same migrant farm workers for the same wages one summer. Once I learned how I managed to do all right. I also worked as a security guard just after I got out of the Army in Delano during the UFW/Teamsters troubles and saw things from a different perspective. One that included me being shot at and watching whole vineyards and cold storage operations destroyed because the farmers opposed the unions. You see in CA, at least back then, when acreage goes under union contract the contract is tied to the ground, not the farmer, so it transfers union obligations to any successor owners. I learned a reasoned dislike for unions in the CA Central Valley and even after having been forced to join two unions I have not warmed to their current incarnation one wit.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:JHU & AFA 03 Aug 2007 22:25 #153

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Ronald E. Kramedjian in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

As a member of management, was your primary concern the corporate bottom line and its impact on the stockholders?

Yes, so. That was the role I was in and I am proud of doing the job to the best of my ability. That is of course what I agreed to do.

Somehow, I had you figured for management. Lucky guess.

If you really knew what you are talking about in re unions you would know that the perceived impact on wages and benefits is only the tip of the iceberg in regard the real cost of a unionized labor force. The cost in time, productivity, legal fees, etc to companies that have their labor forces organized far exceeds the additional costs in wages, benefits, etc.


Funny, you forgot to mention the real cost of management, specifically, mismanagement, in your anti-labor diatribe. Pay careful attention to the second paragraph.

“Enron is one of the great frauds in American business history,” said James Post, a professor of management at Boston University. “But it is also a symbol of a particular era of management practice. The excesses of Enron point pretty clearly to what was going on in mainstream companies across the business landscape in the 1990s.”

That may go a long way toward explaining the seemingly inexplicable: How corporate America became infused in the late 1990s by what appeared to be a near-endless amount of greed and criminality, leading to scandal at an array of corporate giants, from Enron to WorldCom, from Adelphia to HealthSouth..
.url="http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060526/news_1b26assess.html"]http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060526/news_1b26assess.html[/url

I suspect that my view is slightly more informed that yours unless you have been in the executive suite of a major corporation and have been withholding that information.

I don't doubt for a minute you're much better informed on the inner workings of corporate avarice. I'm just a small businessman and I'm not up on all the latest ways to screw the help. When I hire help I have a simple policy: I pay by the piece and I fire anybody who doesn't work as hard as I do. That said, if the folks who work for me want to form a union, I'm all for it as long as they invite me to their parties.

Anyone who managed to stay awake during American History and Eco 101 likely has a fair grasp of the impact of both union activity and management avarice on the country's economy.

Hmmm. Then what was your problem.

It's not really a "problem" - but your statements suggest you got caught up on your sleep during those classes.

You haven’t made a point germane to my original supposition that union activities have had a positive impact on non-union wages and benefits. Suppositions that I believe you erroneously see as invalid.

Belief is not knowledge. Given your continued inability to demonstrate the validity of your premise, it follows that your statement is a non sequitur.

You also forgot to mention that harvest workers have always been paid on the basis of the amount harvested - boxes, sacks, pounds, bunches, etc. - never on an hourly basis.

No, I have done no such thing. I have ignored your statement for the tripe that I see it as being. Every farm worker contract that I reviewed in CA the 70’s and 80's had a guaranteed minimum hourly wage written into it. If worker piece production did not equal the guaranteed minimum they got the hourly rate.

Gee, that sounds great, but in the real world, if a picker can't pick his quota, he's gone.

You with your air if supposed infallibility assume too much.

You're pretty good at trying to dish out condescension while being as patronizing as possible, so I figured you could stand a little taste of your own medicine. You're not required to like it; in fact, it'd kinda tickle me if you didn't.

You are living up to the first half of the old saying in regard the word “assume”.

LMAO! I already said that: Can't you come up with your own stuff?

When in Jr. High I, like many other country kids, picked g****s along side those self same migrant farm workers for the same wages one summer. Once I learned how I managed to do all right.

Do tell? Did you send thousands home as you claim you've seen Mexican migrants do?

I also worked as a security guard just after I got out of the Army in Delano during the UFW/Teamsters troubles and saw things from a different perspective. One that included me being shot at and watching whole vineyards and cold storage operations destroyed because the farmers opposed the unions. You see in CA, at least back then, when acreage goes under union contract the contract is tied to the ground, not the farmer, so it transfers union obligations to any successor owners. I learned a reasoned dislike for unions in the CA Central Valley and even after having been forced to join two unions I have not warmed to their current incarnation one wit.

Hoopty do! Did it ever occur to you that unions are a Bad Thing only when they are artificially supported by closed shop laws? That management's excesses led to the passage of closed shop laws in many places? That the pendulum swings both ways and management's greed first put it into motion?

Not to worry, I hear you put on a great meeting. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:JHU & AFA 04 Aug 2007 03:11 #154

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Somehow, I had you figured for management.
Gee. You are begining to show signs of senility aren’t you. Perhaps you should refer to post 144 where I clearly and directly stated that I was on the management side of things. Or are you simply guilty of becoming lazy or lackadaisical in your approach because you think you have buffaloed your way over people enough that you believe that everyone is afraid to call you on your flowery but overly officious male bovine excrement.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Funny, you forgot to mention the real cost of management, specifically, mismanagement, in your anti-labor diatribe.
I do not have to. It is a given and it is why professional managers of my generation for the most part were quite careful to work to insure that our management practices enhanced the long term value of the corporation in a socially responsible fashion. Go back and review the writings of Drucker for a quick refresher. You may be able to learn something at this late date.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
“Enron is one of the great frauds in American business history,” said James Post, a professor of management at Boston University. “But it is also a symbol of a particular era of management practice. The excesses of Enron point pretty clearly to what was going on in mainstream companies across the business landscape in the 1990s.”

That may go a long way toward explaining the seemingly inexplicable: How corporate America became infused in the late 1990s by what appeared to be a near-endless amount of greed and criminality, leading to scandal at an array of corporate giants, from Enron to WorldCom, from Adelphia to HealthSouth..
.url="http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060526/news_1b26assess.html"]http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060526/news_1b26assess.html[/url
Yup and all of it fueled by the softening of corporate enforcement measures by the Republican controlled Senate and Congress. You remember the whole less government oversight movement don’t you? Or would it be easier on you if we just skip that little fact. But we digress. Your quotes have little or nothing to do with my specific statements in re the good that non union workers in similar segments obtained from union activities.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I don't doubt for a minute you're much better informed on the inner workings of corporate avarice.
I’m glad you have you recognized one of the very things that I have fought so hard to over come in the process of reorganizing failing IT organizations. The mismanagement of corporate assets to achieve high short term gain while seriously impacting long term viability is perhaps the most serious cancer that affects Corporate America.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I'm just a small businessman and I'm not up on all the latest ways to screw the help.
With the way you pontificate on then I would have thought you kept up on all the latest management technique.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
It's not really a "problem"
I agree, your sleeping though your classes isn’t a problem. At least if you don’t care about having the education to back up your bluster.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Given your continued inability to demonstrate the validity of your premise
Only because you continue to ignore facts that are inconvenient for you in your effort to obfuscate.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gee, that sounds great, but in the real world, if a picker can't pick his quota, he's gone.
Only in the fantasy world that you live in. In the contracts I’ve seen and knowing how the ALRB has behaved in CA doing something like that would not only be ruled in violation of the contract your trying to do so would cost so much more in legal fees ect ... defending the action that it would be far cheaper to honor the contact and ignore the low producer. But then I guess in your world it’s also OK to ignore major negative impacts from bad management decisions driven by emotional response instead of reason and fact.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
LMAO! I already said that: Can't you come up with your own stuff?
It really sucks when it can be applied to you doesn’t it. Perhaps you would benefit by remembering this in the future.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Did you send thousands home as you claim you've seen Mexican migrants do?
No, I made good money for that time. If you doubt my claim go dig up the western union cash transfer records, but then you wouldn’t want to put in that much efforts only to discover you didn’t know what you were talking about would you?
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Did it ever occur to you that unions are a Bad Thing only when they are artificially supported by closed shop laws?
Nope. In their current incarnation the cost to the companies invaded by unions and that have to deal with all of the burdens that are attendant to that invasion make unions regardless of the state that their employees are in bad.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
That management's excesses led to the passage of closed shop laws in many places?
Ah. You pick up that in class did you?
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
That the pendulum swings both ways and management's greed first put it into motion?
Like I said. I see a lot of good in the activities of unions in their original incarnation. But this has change from the protection and advancement of worker interest based upon reasonable morality into unions protecting individual workers regardless of their workplace misadventures. The cost to the other workers in the workplace and to the companies that have to deal with this is immeasurably huge.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Not to worry, I hear you put on a great meeting. :)
Yes I do, we actually get work done in them.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

Visit the Guild of Professional Farriers, Inc. Website

"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
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RE:JHU & AFA 04 Aug 2007 15:41 #155

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Ronald E. Kramedjian in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

Somehow, I had you figured for management.

Gee. You are begining to show signs of senility aren’t you.

One of the pitfalls of using irony to convey a thought is the possibility that some doofus just might not get it.

...Professional managers of my generation for the most part were quite careful to work to insure that our management practices enhanced the long term value of the corporation in a socially responsible fashion.

You're kidding, right? Corporate managers from "your" generation were running the show at Enron, Exxon, AIG, Ford, Adelphia, Clearstream, Compass Group, Fannie Mae, Lockheed, Halliburten, Phar-Mor, Royal Dutch Shell, World Com, et al: Which ones do you feel have "enhanced the long term value of the corporation in a socially responsible fashion"?

Go back and review the writings of Drucker for a quick refresher. You may be able to learn something at this late date.

Peter Drucker? Funny you should cite him, he doesn't do much to support your claim of increased corporate social responsibility: "...And no matter how laudable their aims, the developed countries' insistence on fair labour laws and adequate environmental rules for manufacturers in the developing world acts as a mighty barrier to imports from these countries." i]The Manufacturing Paradox[/i

A much more realistic assessment of late 20th Century corporate ethics can be found in Judge Jed Rakoff's, Corporate Ethics in an Age of Steroids. http://www.abcny.org/pdf/report/CORPORATE_ETHICS.pdf

I don't doubt for a minute you're much better informed on the inner workings of corporate avarice.

I’m glad you have you recognized one of the very things that I have fought so hard to over come in the process of reorganizing failing IT organizations. The mismanagement of corporate assets to achieve high short term gain while seriously impacting long term viability is perhaps the most serious cancer that affects Corporate America.

I'll happily concede your superior expertise when it comes to the implementation of corporate avarice.

I'm just a small businessman and I'm not up on all the latest ways to screw the help.

With the way you pontificate on then I would have thought you kept up on all the latest management technique.

I'll also concede your superior expertise when it comes to screwing the help - I don't even try.

In the real world, if a picker can't pick his quota, he's gone.

Only in the fantasy world that you live in. In the contracts I’ve seen and knowing how the ALRB has behaved in CA doing something like that would not only be ruled in violation of the contract your trying to do so would cost so much more in legal fees ect ...

To hear you natter on, one would think you were privy to every contract written in CA and that every facet of agriculture in CA was covered by a union contract - but only 27,000 out of an estimated 1,000,000 CA farm workers were affiliated with the UFW in 2001, and that number has since decreased. [Sacramento Bee, 2001]

defending the action that it would be far cheaper to honor the contact and ignore the low producer. But then I guess in your world it’s also OK to ignore major negative impacts from bad management decisions driven by emotional response instead of reason and fact.

You might benefit from acquainting yourself with facts instead of taking pedantic flights of fantasy: "AB 423, would impose mandatory jail time on growers or farm labor contractors who are convicted three times of knowingly violating labor laws. No farm employer has been charged, let alone convicted, under existing wage law, according to enforcement officials. Moreover, no such case ever has been referred to prosecutors, the officials said." [Sacramento Bee, 2002]

In their current incarnation the cost to the companies invaded by unions and that have to deal with all of the burdens that are attendant to that invasion make unions regardless of the state that their employees are in bad.

Invaded? Since when does an election constitute an "invasion."

Management's excesses led to the passage of closed shop laws in many places?

Ah. You pick up that in class did you?


Yessir: Did you sleep through that class too?

Not to worry, I hear you put on a great meeting.

Yes I do, we actually get work done in them.

Maybe you should stick with doing what you do best, I hear you had a little trouble with the CF test. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:JHU & AFA 04 Aug 2007 19:22 #156

  • Rick Burten
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Maybe you should stick with doing what you do best, I hear you had a little trouble with the CF test. :)
As did/do many. However, Ron perservered and has attained that credential, is working on his CJF credential, and in due time, will become a member of the Guild.

While I think the conversation between the two of you has been fascinating to read, I'm disappointed that certification was brought into the conversation as a means to disrespect someone's laudable efforts in that venue.

While I personally have no use for unions(yes, its true, I come from a dyed in the wool management perspective) I have the utmost respect for anyone who stands for the AFA and/or GPF certifications and continues to do so until they are successful.

I hope you two continue to bash each other's brains out on the union question. Its quite entertaining and sometimes, informational. :)
Rick Burten PF

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."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:JHU & AFA 04 Aug 2007 21:22 #157

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Rick Burten in gray, deletia

As did/do many. However, Ron perservered and has attained that credential, is working on his CJF credential, and in due time, will become a member of the Guild.

Good for him. Not everyone can be a CF who also puts on good meetings.

While I think the conversation between the two of you has been fascinating to read, I'm disappointed that certification was brought into the conversation as a means to disrespect someone's laudable efforts in that venue.

As far as I'm concerned, "Good try", is the first phrase in the Loser's Lexicon. Anybody can nod their head, but not everybody whistles up.

While I personally have no use for unions(yes, its true, I come from a dyed in the wool management perspective) I have the utmost respect for anyone who stands for the AFA and/or GPF certifications and continues to do so until they are successful.

I don't find making an effort to be particularly noteworthy, perseverance (what cowboys call "try") is always admirable, but only accomplishment is worthy of respect.

That said, I don't have any use for closed shops, but any union that can exist without closed shop laws is fine by me. As an employer, I try to treat anybody working for me like I'd like to be treated, but I was dead serious when I wrote that I'd fire anybody who won't work as hard as I do and I also pay by the unit. Anything from hauling hay, to building fence, to bottling Durasole, the business model's the same.

I hope you two continue to bash each other's brains out on the union question. Its quite entertaining and sometimes, informational.

Actually, it's not really a union question, it's segued into a management/worker thing. Since I firmly believe multinational corporations are a bigger threat to America than terrorism, unionism, communism, socialism, or any other "ism", it may get real interesting shortly. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:JHU & AFA 04 Aug 2007 22:58 #158

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Actually, it's not really a union question, it's segued into a management/worker thing. Since I firmly believe multinational corporations are a bigger threat to America than terrorism, unionism, communism, socialism, or any other "ism", it may get real interesting shortly. :)
We may then have found a need and use for all that popcorn that Gary had for the now canceled, Match. :D
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:JHU & AFA 04 Aug 2007 23:31 #159

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, "Good try", is the first phrase in the Loser's Lexicon. Anybody can nod their head, but not everybody whistles up.
Great. Now it appears you have insulted everyone who has stood for the certifications more than once.
I don't find making an effort to be particularly noteworthy, perseverance (what cowboys call "try") is always admirable, but only accomplishment is worthy of respect.
So I take it that since Ron has now achieved the CF credential, you do in fact, respect him? But those who are still trying to become certified, are unworthy of your respect? If that is the case, then are you sure that you are the right man to be heading the campaign to promote certification to either the farrier or the horse owner, or both?
I was dead serious when I wrote that I'd fire anybody who won't work as hard as I do and I also pay by the unit. Anything from hauling hay, to building fence, to bottling Durasole, the business model's the same.
Your model assumes that everyone is as capable of prodigious output(with regard to how hard someone is working) as you are. Realistically, that is an unrealistic view. Paying by the unit is a different matter entirely as it is the worker who determines how much s/he earns.
I firmly believe multinational corporations are a bigger threat to America than terrorism, unionism, communism, socialism, or any other "ism", .....
I too have issues with the multinationals though I think it is a fait accompli and there is going to be little that can or will be done to change the status quo.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:JHU & AFA 04 Aug 2007 23:37 #160

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Corporate managers from "your" generation were running the show at Enron, Exxon, AIG, Ford, Adelphia, Clearstream, Compass Group, Fannie Mae, Lockheed, Halliburten, Phar-Mor, Royal Dutch Shell, World Com, et al:
Interesting list you have chosen. Two things about it. First they are all the exception rather than the rule. Second until recently they have all be lead by men of your generation.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Peter Drucker? Funny you should cite him, he doesn't do much to support your claim of increased corporate social responsibility: "...And no matter how laudable their aims, the developed countries' insistence on fair labour laws and adequate environmental rules for manufacturers in the developing world acts as a mighty barrier to imports from these countries." i]The Manufacturing Paradox[/i
Yup. This is an astute observation of the impact of those laws. But it is a neutral observation in and of itself. It neither applies to our discussion nor denigrates the value of Drucker’s work.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I’m glad you have you recognized one of the very things that I have fought so hard to over come in the process of reorganizing failing IT organizations. The mismanagement of corporate assets to achieve high short term gain while seriously impacting long term viability is perhaps the most serious cancer that affects Corporate America.

I'll happily concede your superior expertise when it comes to the implementation of corporate avarice.
If you had actually read the article that you quoted and compared it with my statement you would have seen that the Judge said essentially the same thing that I have. He is proposing an interesting set of steps to inoculate the cancer that I spoke of but I do not think he goes far enough.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
To hear you natter on, one would think you were privy to every contract written in CA and that every facet of agriculture in CA was covered by a union contract - but only 27,000 out of an estimated 1,000,000 CA farm workers were affiliated with the UFW in 2001, and that number has since decreased. [Sacramento Bee, 2001]
It is to bad that your having to resort to internet searches looking for articles to support your fantasy world. On the other hand each time I say something I am speaking with the authority of personal experience. If you review what I wrote for content you will note that I referred directly to activities from the 70's and 80's. But on a bright note I am happy to see that the UFW is loosing membership, do you have any information in re the AFL/CIO and Teamsters stats in their representation of CA farm workers or is this yet another example of you quoting something that you have no personal knowledge of in an effort to cover up your lack of personal experience in an area that you want to appear an expert?
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
You might benefit from acquainting yourself with facts instead of taking pedantic flights of fantasy: "AB 423, would impose mandatory jail time on growers or farm labor contractors who are convicted three times of knowingly violating labor laws. No farm employer has been charged, let alone convicted, under existing wage law, according to enforcement officials. Moreover, no such case ever has been referred to prosecutors, the officials said." [Sacramento Bee, 2002]
Hmmm. I move out of CA in 1997 because I was tired of their ineffectual government. At least you have provided me with some validation that I made a sound decision back then.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Invaded? Since when does an election constitute an "invasion."
You have obviously never been on the receiving end of a unionization effort. Had you, you would not have asked such a ****** question.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Maybe you should stick with doing what you do best, I hear you had a little trouble with the CF test. :)
Gee, are you beginning to loose your cool. How can you hold yourself up as an advocate of the certification process and then insult anyone that has ever tested more than once in any section of the test. On this you have stepped way over the line. Perhaps you should go back to shoeing because you just failed the test as a spokesman for the AFA certification process.

As far as I am concerned I've made my point and since you have now erased what little respect I had for you I am disengaging from this conversation. I will now regard you as a contemporary of Phil and treat you and your posts with the same level of regard.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

Visit the Guild of Professional Farriers, Inc. Website

"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
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RE:JHU & AFA 05 Aug 2007 00:35 #161

Rick Burten wrote:
We may then have found a need and use for all that popcorn that Gary had for the now canceled, Match. :D



Hey guys: I offered to step up to plate with Phil!!

OR we could just have a popcorn wrestling match well with me and ???

sound fun???
________
HOTGIRLTINA
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RE:JHU & AFA 05 Aug 2007 00:52 #162

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Rick Burten in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

As far as I'm concerned, "Good try", is the first phrase in the Loser's Lexicon. Anybody can nod their head, but not everybody whistles up.

Great. Now it appears you have insulted everyone who has stood for the certifications more than once.

You said that, not me. I said, "I don't find making an effort to be particularly noteworthy, perseverance (what cowboys call "try") is always admirable, but only accomplishment is worthy of respect." If anyone chooses to feel insulted by my statement, they've got problems worse than failing a test.

So I take it that since Ron has now achieved the CF credential, you do in fact, respect him?

I respect the accomplishment.

But those who are still trying to become certified, are unworthy of your respect?

One cannot respect an accomplishment that has not been achieved. To reiterate, anybody can nod, not everybody whistles up. In the real world, almost doesn't count.

If that is the case, then are you sure that you are the right man to be heading the campaign to promote certification to either the farrier or the horse owner, or both?

If the "right man" needs to be a suck up to unsuccessful testees, I'm damn sure the wrong man. In order for certification to be meaningful, it must be recognized as an achievement, not an effort.

I was dead serious when I wrote that I'd fire anybody who won't work as hard as I do and I also pay by the unit. Anything from hauling hay, to building fence, to bottling Durasole, the business model's the same.

Your model assumes that everyone is as capable of prodigious output(with regard to how hard someone is working) as you are. Realistically, that is an unrealistic view. Paying by the unit is a different matter entirely as it is the worker who determines how much s/he earns.

Nossir, my model assumes timing how long it takes several different folks to get something done, establishing the value of what got done, and the ability of any motivated worker to work as hard as an admittedly lazy old man. It may not be a realistic business model in your end of the sandbox, but it works in mine.

I too have issues with the multinationals though I think it is a fait accompli and there is going to be little that can or will be done to change the status quo.

Me'n Bubba. We hunt, we fish, we vote. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:JHU & AFA 05 Aug 2007 01:13 #163

  • Bill Adams
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Rick Burten wrote:
I too have issues with the multinationals though I think it is a fait accompli and there is going to be little that can or will be done to change the status quo.
Check out www.fairtax.com ,that may shake things up a bit.

Ron and Tom,
To think that at one time it was taken for granted that Phil and Jaye couldn't be replaced.
Oh that you two would get this worked out and then on other subjects, work together to improve the AFA as I know you both want to. From where I sit, I see a couple of loads of varried tallent to be used to the better.

Hey George,
Where are our numbers?
Bill

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:JHU & AFA 05 Aug 2007 02:00 #164

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Ronald E. Kramedjian in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

Enron, Exxon, AIG, Ford, Adelphia, Clearstream, Compass Group, Fannie Mae, Lockheed, Halliburten, Phar-Mor, Royal Dutch Shell, World Com, et al

Interesting list you have chosen. Two things about it. First they are all the exception rather than the rule.

You know this because?

Second until recently they have all be lead by men of your generation.

Not so. None of the CEOs running any of the cited companies were of my generation, as nearly as I can tell, all were baby boomers.

If you had actually read the article that you quoted and compared it with my statement you would have seen that the Judge said essentially the same thing that I have. He is proposing an interesting set of steps to inoculate the cancer that I spoke of but I do not think he goes far enough.

You're kidding, right? Did you read what the Judge had to say, especially the part about management's transgressions being company oriented 50 years ago and personally oriented since?

It is to bad that your having to resort to internet searches looking for articles to support your fantasy world.

I found 708,000 articles doing a google on "corporate scandal." It appears several other folks share my "fantasy."

On the other hand each time I say something I am speaking with the authority of personal experience. If you review what I wrote for content you will note that I referred directly to activities from the 70's and 80's.

As badly as it pains me to be the bearer of bad tidings, you ain't the whole enchilada. Your personal experience in the 70s and 80's is virtually meaningless in terms of the big picture.

Since when does an election constitute an "invasion."


You have obviously never been on the receiving end of a unionization effort. Had you, you would not have asked such a ****** question.

Evidently, the tyranny of the majority holds terrors for your style of management. Not for me: Since Texas is a right-to-work state, any employee of mine can join whatever union he takes a notion to join. Joining won't affect his hours, wages, or benefits, but he can damn sure be a union member if that's what floats his boat. On the other hand, if I don't get invited to their parties, I'll fire his sorry ass.

Maybe you should stick with doing what you do best, I hear you had a little trouble with the CF test. :)

Gee, are you beginning to loose your cool. How can you hold yourself up as an advocate of the certification process and then insult anyone that has ever tested more than once in any section of the test.

If you feel "insulted" by my pointing out your failure, I suggest that'd be a great topic for your next conversation with your health care professional. For most normal folks, failing a portion of a test is not a matter of either pride or shame, failure engenders resolve to do better next time.

On this you have stepped way over the line. Perhaps you should go back to shoeing because you just failed the test as a spokesman for the AFA certification process.

The AFA certification process does not recognize effort, it recognizes accomplishment. Please don't whine, it's unseemly.

As far as I am concerned I've made my point and since you have now erased what little respect I had for you I am disengaging from this conversation.

Not having the your respect will cut me to the core, but I'll try to carry on. Lucky for me, a few folks who can damn sure shoe a horse still call me "Sir" and "Mr. Tom", so I'll probably be able to live with my shame.

I will now regard you as a contemporary of Phil and treat you and your posts with the same level of regard.

I am most assuredly a contemorary of Phil, Jeff, Rick, Jaye, Baron, and every other denizen of this deep! And, while the "regard" in which you hold me and my stuff will have me staying up nights, with any luck at all, I'll get over it in a year or so. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:JHU & AFA 05 Aug 2007 03:18 #165

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
I will now regard you as a contemporary of Phil and treat you and your posts with the same level of regard.

Hu? What? Did I just get a compliment or an insult? :confused:
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I am most assuredly a contemorary of Phil, Jeff, Rick, Jaye, Baron, and every other denizen of this deep! And, while the "regard" in which you hold me and my stuff will have me staying up nights, with any luck at all, I'll get over it in a year or so.

Thats a pretty good compliment. Thanks.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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