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TOPIC: Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana.

RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 07:17 #31

  • Kaydence
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
You are extremely correct all the way. Since, I do not know anything about professional training (except TB Racing); I was just being polite:....BUT.......
the truth of the matter is; one of my clients uses his tricks to train their horse for farrier, ect..... Now! the horse is worse than ever before, tries to run over them, ect; and is getting so bad to shoe to the point of me getting hurt! (a slammer). This horse was one of the perfect horses to shoe last year, before the training tapes on the Down Under way!!
He was already a well-trained novice pleasure AQHA horse, before. Get it!?!?

I've dealt with this problem a number of times. The horse is great as a youngster or as a new purchase but as the owner begins the "natural horsemanship" training with it, it becomes dangerous to work on. If someone mentions in advance that they are followers of NH, I turn the work down in advance. There isn't enough danger pay to make it worth my while.

Cheri
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 10:24 #32

But Phil ; is that before someone GETS SERIOUSLY HURT!!! my Dear?
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 10:48 #33

ladyblacksmith wrote:
But Phil ; is that before someone GETS SERIOUSLY HURT!!! my Dear?

What are you talking about?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 11:03 #34

Phil Armitage wrote:
What are you talking about?

I was kicked in the head and face breaking my facial bones, from a horse that was naturally training. He blew up, and the owner didn't know what to do and lost it.
I was out for 8 weeks after surgery. Had to built my trade and my life all over again.
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 11:17 #35

ladyblacksmith wrote:
I was kicked in the head and face breaking my facial bones, from a horse that was naturally training. He blew up, and the owner didn't know what to do and lost it.
I was out for 8 weeks after surgery. Had to built my trade and my life all over again.

So you blame Natural Horsemanship?

Ever seen a rookie use a rasp or power tools. It is not the tools fault when they get hurt. Natural Horsemanship is knowledge, understanding and tools that can be used for training. Unfortunately this can be very dangerous in the hands of a novice, non-horseman, green horn, rookie. You get my point.

Stay safe and sorry about your injury. Been kicked many times, some serious some just hurt like hell. Everytime it happens I feel like a fool.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 11:43 #36

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Phil Armitage wrote:
Good on you Linda for speaking up.

I like Clinton Anderson and Monty Roberts . . .
Phil you are the poster child for gullibility. Read this:

http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/

Better yet do a google on "monty roberts fraud"

ROTFL!
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 11:58 #37

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Gary Hill wrote:
We always used lunge whips,but that isn't policially correct anymore.
Well if you give a lounge whip to a novice they just might sting themselves in the face with it. A well made lung whip is a great tool if you have the skill and coordination to use it. A carrot stick is like "training wheels" for folks what have no hand eye coordination. Most of the folks that buy the carrot stick never graduate to the lunge whip and certainly never to refined control.

Alas there are suckers born every minute what think they can "buy" horsemanship. AND theres folks like Roberts, Anderson, Parelli, Lyons . . . who will sell it to them.

A real professional trainer will set you up with a broke horse and give you riding lessons on broke horses.
Tom Bloomer
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 12:22 #38

tbloomer wrote:
Well if you give a lounge whip to a novice they just might sting themselves in the face with it. A well made lung whip is a great tool if you have the skill and coordination to use it. A carrot stick is like "training wheels" for folks what have no hand eye coordination. Most of the folks that buy the carrot stick never graduate to the lunge whip and certainly never to refined control.

Alas there are suckers born every minute what think they can "buy" horsemanship. AND theres folks like Roberts, Anderson, Parelli, Lyons . . . who will sell it to them.

A real professional trainer will set you up with a broke horse and give you riding lessons on broke horses.

I'm not the gullable person you think I am. Your point in the qoutes is spot on and I have stressed the same thing to many horse owners. I have heard Clinton Anderson and Monty Roberts stress the same point. Teaching people about horses is not easy and can be very dangerous. Learning the mechanics without haveing the skills and feel is dangerous. Some accuse these trainers of just being a saleman and greedy because they charge so much, but think about it the time involved to learn one on one with a trainer is expensive, it take a lot of time, a life time. Training a horse then handing the horse over to a non-horseman might work some of the time with some horses and some people. Problem is when the horse returns trained we all have seen things go wrong real fast because the person does not maintain the training, trust and respect. If you figure out a way to teach people like these guys do, then you will be helping horses and people. I have read all the stuff about Monty Roberts it is old news. I have also seen him successfully round pen several problem horses that he has never seen before. He is an excellent horseman trying to teach people and it is unfortunate his family is attacking him. This all started when he was open and honest about how his father was and this ****ed off his aunt. :rolleyes:
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 18:26 #39

  • George Geist
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All this talk of "Natural Horsemanship" brings to mind an ad I see in a magazine I just got. This guy's name is Professor Beery and he is selling a course in how to become a horse trainer. Make big $. Break a colt in only 8 hours.

Says he is the king of horse trainers and tamers. Makes worthless horses valuable, has taught thousands successfully. Mail in the coupon to get a free book his "Horse Trainers Perspectus".

Write to Prof Jesse Beery @ PO Box 25 Pleasant Hill Ohio

Oh, by the way, the magazine I see this in? The American Blacksmith February of 1912!

Nothing new about any of these guys and their outlandish claims folks
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 18:27 #40

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Phil Armitage wrote:
. . . the time involved to learn one on one with a trainer is expensive . . .
Which means that most folks what buy the "stuff" are looking for a fast easy way to get from ****** to smart. It works much better when a novice is paired with a broke horse. Then at least the horse has some sense. :)
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 19:28 #41

  • Mike Ferrara
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Carolhanq wrote:
She is a recent graduate from the Jamie Jackson program. While, I trim a few horses in our area, I have been able to refer many to another barefoot trimmer that I know. Now, the demand is so great that his schedule is full and I am having to turn people away. Carol

Carol, I had to come back to this post and ask. How many horses constitutes a "full schedule" for a trimmer.

May I ask what some of you barefoot trimmers are charging?

BTW, I make it a point to never trim a horse unless it's barefoot. I found that trying to cut steel or even aluminum really messes up nippers and rasps don't last long either.
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 19:32 #42

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary Hill wrote:
"If work is so easy to come by why do they feel they need such advertising techniques?"



Mike, don't you keep up with stats? The" Horseman "is an endangered species.
These guys on TV have an unlimited supply of first time horseowners that don't really have a clue. They sell them anything and everything. Have you seen all the orange sticks with string on the ends? We always used lunge whips,but that isn't policially correct anymore.

You use whips! :eek:

Whips may be politically incorrect but luckily most horses don't keep up on politics.
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 20:18 #43

tbloomer wrote:
Which means that most folks what buy the "stuff" are looking for a fast easy way to get from ****** to smart. It works much better when a novice is paired with a broke horse. Then at least the horse has some sense. :)

Well......... maybe :D Trimmed a new horse for one of my clients today. This mare is broke however way too much horse for this owner. She is already labled as a bad and dangerous horse. Thing is she is a great horse, old alfa mare who will get a rookies number in a heart beat. She tested me but soon found out who the boss is and stood great, lead rope in my pocket, soft eye, even the flys did not bother her. If I had a open stall I would take her and enjoy some trail rides. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 21:48 #44

  • Gary Hill
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Phil, you would just take her "trail riding" ? :confused: If she is the kind of mare you're talking about then why don't you want to really do something with her that might show off her abilities? :cool: Trailriding ain't much ability, more of follow the leader, with boogers! :D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Natural hoof care lies come to rural Indiana. 30 Jul 2007 22:12 #45

Phil Armitage wrote:
So you blame Natural Horsemanship?

Ever seen a rookie use a rasp or power tools. It is not the tools fault when they get hurt. Natural Horsemanship is knowledge, understanding and tools that can be used for training. Unfortunately this can be very dangerous in the hands of a novice, non-horseman, green horn, rookie. You get my point.

Stay safe and sorry about your injury. Been kicked many times, some serious some just hurt like hell. Everytime it happens I feel like a fool.


I wasn't blaming NH under a completent professional trainer; it's when it's applied to first-time horse owners, ect and they (NH trainers) are promoting this as a cure for all on remedial, rank, or unbroke horses to green horns, saying look train your horse your way, NO experience ness.
You can save thousands of dollars by training your horse, your way!

Example: Woman bought all NH books, tapes, never been around a horse before, then to save money bought an unbroke, never handled mustang yearling at $125.00 for her 11 year old daughter to train her way. I was able to trim (sort of) the mustang for the 1st time with no real trouble, in a hour if I was very, very quiet; NO sudden moves. After that, they bought a stallion mustang 2 year old, and put them both together to breed. She thought her daughter could start her own breeding program, I quit!!! Found out later she sent her daughter out there with both in the field to get them, the little girl got hurt; ran over by the stallion protecting the mare. They called me out to trim both after the accident, the mother also didn't believe in halters and lead shanks, since they (NH Trainers) show you leading your horse without anything. There are no state laws on the books about letting children train horses.

It takes all kinds; and the client I shod that green-boke pony (who hurt me)for the kids were just as clueless, but they had LIED saying they had horses all their life.
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