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TOPIC: Mustad's Latest Acquisition

RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 14 Jun 2007 02:18 #61

  • anvilsteve
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John-
I don't know the answer to your question, but I will find out. There are probably alot of Simond rasps in the pipelineand I am not sure when the Columbian ones will enter. I am sure Mustad will comply with what ever laws that are applicable.
Steve Kraus
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 14 Jun 2007 02:40 #62

  • anvilsteve
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George-

You seem quite upset with us. I am sorry that our policies offend you, they aren't ment to. You seem to want to parse everything I say looking for a way to become more unhappy with us. After reading many of your other posts on various subjects, it looks like your are pretty bitter about a lot of things. Lighten up!!

To answer your question about me "pointing my finger at a company for Mustad to buy", it doesn't work that way. In the past I have recommended various products like Tuff Stuff, Thrush Buster, Right Balance etc. for them to market. As their long time farrier consultant I make recommendations, test, many different products. I have always preferred Simonds rasps for myself. You need to realize that Simonds was available, for acquisition. We needed a premium rasp to complete our tool line. Sorry this upsets you.

It's late, I'm tired, I actually do shoe all day, this is all I can manage right now. More to come.

Steve Kraus
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 14 Jun 2007 09:38 #63

anvilsteve wrote:
John-
I don't know the answer to your question, but I will find out. There are probably alot of Simond rasps in the pipelineand I am not sure when the Columbian ones will enter. I am sure Mustad will comply with what ever laws that are applicable.
Steve Kraus
G'Day Mr. Kraus

Thank you, for your response, however the Colombian made Mustad rasps have already entered the USA pipeline.

I have been told by a number of individuals that these rasps are NOT branded "COLOMBIA", as required by US customs laws. :confused:

I believe that every farrier in the USA has the right to know where the tools he purchases are manufactured. Does Mustad concur??

We stamp the "country-of-origin" on each and every rasp we sell, thus there is absolutely no doubt in the end users mind as to where the product is made.

To my knowledge, the other major brands in the marketplace also brand their rasps accordingly.

At your convenience, please advise if Mustad will brand all future rasps with "COLOMBIA".

Best Regards
John Zarzecny
Purveyor of Wood-Miller rasps.

"Politeness and respect won't cost you five cents, they are free to give"
"I'd rather be one hour early, than one minute late"
quote: My Dad
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 14 Jun 2007 12:01 #64

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Steve Kraus in gray, deletia

Looks like I' ve driven a nail a little close to the quick on some of you guys. As I said, you may think you know all the answers, but you don't.

Do you remember what Mr. Lincoln said about fooling some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, and the difficulty involved in fooling all of the people all of the time? Mustad moved Simonds to Columbia for the same reason other multinationals move their operations to Third World countries: cheap labor and no effective regulations governing manufacturing. To claim otherwise is disingenuous and borders on deception.

I can't believe you are revisiting the change from weight to unit packing. I proved many times how the farriers were being short changed by Stanscrew/Stanadyne when they produced Capewell nails and sold by weight. Do I have to go over all that again.

LMAO! You've never "proved" anything of the sort. In reality, although priced by the unit, nails are still packaged by weight; furthermore, despite all the claims of corporate benevolence and the rhetoric of corporate apologists like yourself, the cost per nail increased with the shift to unit pricing.

I suppose you will only believe what you want to, regardless of what I say, even though I was part of that history.

I don't know whether to believe you or my lying eyes.

Yes, Mustad is a multi-national company. In today's world most companies are that way to be competitive and productive.

No so! Worldwide, the majority of businesses are classified as small businesses. Multinationals comprise a relatively small percentage of the business world, but they have a disproportionately large share of the business, due primarily to their monopolistic business practices.

I wish all products could be made here, but that is not reality at this point.

That's not reality at any point.

Ray is having products made by the Chicoms, is that OK?


What Mr. Steele does is not related to Mustad's business practices.

Maybe you guys should try to produce a nail or rasp.

Your point? How exactly would any farrier's ability to produce a nail or rasp be related to Mustad's acquiring another domestic company and moving it to the Third World in their quest for more profits?

Mustad gives more back to the industry then any other company in the form of clinics and sponsorships.

While giving back a pittance, Mustad taken away a helluva lot from the farriers it purports to support by means of the non-competitive pricing enabled by their effective monopoly on certain farrier products and de facto control of others.

They have also stepped up many times when I have asked them to help farriers in need and stuff that you don't know about.

Please spare me your tales of secret corporate benevolence. It's easy to be generous with ounces of pennies while extracting tons of dollars from the industry.

It is easy to believe what you want, when you don't know the facts. I have been with them over 30 years and I know the facts.

I have enough of the facts to know when somebody is peeing on my leg and trying to convince me it's raining.

The critical compound was potassium ferrocyanide and there was a problem due to the banning of it, maybe you were lucky to find rasps that were made before the change.

Will Mustad go back to using that stuff in Columbia? Without effective regulation, the bottom line rules, and nobody is going to give a damn what happens when potassium ferrocyanide encounters a strong acid.

You have to understand some companies might have disappeared if not acquired by Mustad, like Capewell and Cooper.

Perhaps you need to understand that Capewell, Cooper, et al, have disappeared because they no longer exist as entities. When Mustad swallowed them up, Capewell and Cooper were digested and the end product of that digestion is just a different color of Mustad.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 15 Jun 2007 03:22 #65

  • anvilsteve
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Tom-
I guess you have a lot more time then I do to carry on your rants. It looks like you do it as a way let steam off. I would much rather have this conversation face to face because you really do not know what you are talking about and you would need to call me a liar to my face. I'll draw you a map if you would like to come and do that and maybe even give you dinner.
It's too bad you can't figure out the nail packaging change, sure the price went up, it had to, Capewell was not profitable, which is why their quality went down. Right now I don't have the energy to explain how unit pricing is more accurate then weight. Did you know that Cooper originally sold their nails at 40% below their costs to destroy Capewell? People like you are never going to understand what it takes to produce a good stable supply of nails. I know that no matter what I say you are going to try to twist it or find a way to not believe it. The undisputable fact is that I was there , you were not. You make accusations based on your narrow, bitter view point. I am not an apologist for Mustad, but I am willing to tell you the truth as I have experienced it, you just won't listen. That's the way you want it, otherwise you might not have as much to complain about, which seems to be your hobby.

I am truly sorry that you feel this way and you think Mustad is the bad guy. I guess Cowboys need bad guys to go after, even if they have to invent them. Our great friend Burney Chapman didn't think Mustad was the devil like you do, in fact he felt just the opposite, and he said so many times. I suppose if you didn't here him, it can't be true.

Enough for now, maybe I'll explain the nail packaging to you if you are ready to listen.

Steve Kraus, CJF
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 15 Jun 2007 09:47 #66

  • Ron Oldenbeuving
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I started my first apprenticeship as a Toolmaker in 1981. Over the years I have seen the bigger corporations in Australia start sourcing their tooling out and closing in-house toolrooms. Then they started sourcing their tools from overseas. Now it has got to the point where they either source the parts in cheaper labour countries, or simply move their factories over instead. The interesting part of the overseas sourced tooling went thus -

(From the purchasing officer's point of view)
1. Source overseas tooling for about 50% available locally.
2. Receive and tryout tooling.
3. Tooling doesn't work / part is incorrect / tool is wrong material / tool doesnt fit machinery / tooling falls apart (feel free to pick any 1 or more of these).
4. Source local tooling firms to repair/fix said tooling (due to time constraints), with total price of tooling plus repairs now well above original local quoted price.
5. Look good because you got the tooling at 50% of the local price and repairs go on the maintenance budget, which isnt the purchasing officer's problem.

About 18 months ago, a local car manufacturer had a preproduction build vehicle sitting in their assembly plant, but it didnt actually go together, nothing lined up. The major components' tooling had all been sourced overseas, and now the local tooling companies were under the pump to fix it all, RIGHT BLOODY NOW!. Only 1 problem, massive staff shortages. In the last 10 years, half the toolmakers in the country have turned to other occupations, due to a lack of work. These multi-nationals have shat in their beds, now they can sleep in it.
Ron Oldenbeuving
Accredited Farrier
South Australia

"What did they go back to before they had drawing boards?" :/
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 15 Jun 2007 15:07 #67

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I have been thinking about my latest posts to George and Tom and I want to apologize if my tone has been harsh. I have been taking their negative comments personally due to the fact that I have been an advisor to Mustad since the beginning of their endeavors here. I 've been logging on after long days of shoeing when my patience is worn thin and comprimised by hayfever meds. I also don't like my statements twisted to make your point. ( That grey deletia thing that Tom does )I am a better speaker in person and can easily back up anything I say. On the computer is very different for me. Anyway, I get the point about moving manufacturing overseas, and if their products become inferior because of that, Mustad will either adjust or pay the price in lost sales and reputation. I believe that they really want to provide high quality products for our industry at competive prices and part of what I do for them is monitor this and provide feedback. Again I apologize for my harsh tone and I will explain the weight vs. count deal to Tom later.

Steve Kraus, CJF
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 15 Jun 2007 15:14 #68

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Steve Kraus, CJF in gray, deletia

I guess you have a lot more time then I do to carry on your rants. It looks like you do it as a way let steam off.

Retirement has its advantages. That said, should you eventually tire of the ad hominem stuff, you might consider addressing the issues at hand.

I would much rather have this conversation face to face because you really do not know what you are talking about and you would need to call me a liar to my face.

Do you have a problem with my pointing out the realities of the way multinationals do business on a public forum? As to calling you a liar to your face, if you're trying to tell folks the price per nail didn't go up with the advent of unit packaging, you're lying and I don't have any problem with pointing that out here or anywhere else.

I'll draw you a map if you would like to come and do that and maybe even give you dinner.

I'll pass on the dinner invitation, but if you're ever down this way, anybody in Ledbetter can tell you where the Stovall place is.

It's too bad you can't figure out the nail packaging change, sure the price went up, it had to, Capewell was not profitable, which is why their quality went down.

The salient point is that the price per nail went up!

Right now I don't have the energy to explain how unit pricing is more accurate then weight.

Is it your contention that horseshoe nails are not packaged by weight at present, as are nuts, bolts, washers, etc.?

Did you know that Cooper originally sold their nails at 40% below their costs to destroy Capewell? People like you are never going to understand what it takes to produce a good stable supply of nails. I know that no matter what I say you are going to try to twist it or find a way to not believe it.

A skeptic like me will probably point out that your accusing one multinational of trying to "destroy" another with below-cost pricing is not exactly news, it happens every day. Pot. Kettle. Black.

The undisputable fact is that I was there , you were not.

Wrong! I was there. I was shoeing horses every day when nail packaging was changed from weight to unit, paying more per nail, and listening to folks like yourself try to tell me the price of nails hadn't really hadn't gone up and the increase in the cost per nail was somehow for my benefit. Then, as now, I find such arguments specious because they are obviously illogical.

You make accusations based on your narrow, bitter view point.

Reality without corporate spin may not be palatable to you, but it's nevertheless reality. Perhaps you'd like to explain once again how Mustad's acquisition of Simonds and moving that operation to Columbia was based on some factor other than the typical avarice of a multinational.

I am not an apologist for Mustad, but I am willing to tell you the truth as I have experienced it, you just won't listen.

Do you remember the old saw on the identification of ducks, that begins, "If it quacks like a duck..."?

That's the way you want it, otherwise you might not have as much to complain about, which seems to be your hobby.

If you find my comments about Mustad's corporate behavior to be offputting, you might try explaining the rationale for that behavior instead of parroting the corporate line and wondering aloud how anyone could have the audacity to question Mustad's behavior.

I am truly sorry that you feel this way and you think Mustad is the bad guy.

Mustad is a stateless multinational corporation that has gained an effective monopoly and the de facto control of the farrier supply market in the United States: What's to like?

I guess Cowboys need bad guys to go after, even if they have to invent them. Our great friend Burney Chapman didn't think Mustad was the devil like you do, in fact he felt just the opposite, and he said so many times. I suppose if you didn't here him, it can't be true.

Funny, I met Burney in 1978 and in our many conversations, he never once mentioned Mustad.

Enough for now, maybe I'll explain the nail packaging to you if you are ready to listen.

You'll have to do lots of "explaining" to convince me the price per nail didn't go up with the switch in packaging because I was there and I did the math.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 15 Jun 2007 20:47 #69

I really do not care what the price per nail is. Isnt the issue here people's jobs? Not everyone is suited for tech jobs, desk jobs, etc. Pay the American worker a fair wage with benefits. Cost of liveing and doing buisness always goes up, so what. It makes me sick to see corporations outsource to save on labor. Another thing, what the hell is wrong with the EPA protecting the enviroment? Find another way to get a qaulity product and charge whatever you need to charge. Outsourceing in my mind brings up all kinds of other issues. Running away from regulations that protect the enviroment and people is wrong.

It's not Mustads fault that an American Company like Simonds forgot where they started, off the sweat and tears of hard working American labor. Somebody got richer and others lost jobs.

On a brighter note where their is a problem their is opportunity. I see a lot of opportunitys for anyone with the heart to compete with outsourceing. Qaulity products made in the USA employing US citizens.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 16 Jun 2007 02:36 #70

  • George Geist
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anvilsteve wrote:
George-

You seem quite upset with us. I am sorry that our policies offend you, they aren't ment to. You seem to want to parse everything I say looking for a way to become more unhappy with us. After reading many of your other posts on various subjects, it looks like your are pretty bitter about a lot of things. Lighten up!!
Steve Kraus

Actually I'm really not a hard guy to get along with. Like most of us though I don't appreciate being patronized.

Fact of the matter is Mustad threw Americans out of work. This adversely affects all of us. This country is our home and we live here. You say this will cut costs. Perhaps you can tell us what the new price of these rasps will be?

As most of these good folks know if I had anything to say about it they'd be paying about a $20 import tariff on each rasp they tried to bring in here.

I must also agree with Mr Stovall on everything he said but especially with the nail count. I was one who actually counted nails. They NEVER came out as they were supposed to. Your piece count is BS!

As to Mr Zarzecny bringing up their possibly operating illegally. I do recall them being found guilty of Sherman anti-trust violations when they bought Capewell. Remember that? Evidently the laws of our land are a mere petty annoyance for them. Perhaps the US Attorney General's office might be interested in these rasps without proper markings?

Looks like an illegal import to me
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 16 Jun 2007 02:43 #71

  • anvilsteve
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Tom-
I never said that the price per nail didn't go up, see how you are twisting what I say. OK here it goes. When nails were sold by Capewell in 5 lb. boxes, there was a theoretical count per lb. If I remember right that may have been 172, but I'm not sure so don't hold me to that number. When Stanadyne took over the operation they did two things to make sure that there was less nails per pound. One was that they allowed all the manufacturing debris to stay in the box which could sometimes be 5% or more of the weight you were paying for by the pound. When Mustad took over they eliminated over 95% of that junk by changing the way the nails leave the machine. They also had a smaller tray where operators could check the nails regularly for quality before allowing them to be dumped into the larger batch.

The other thing that Stanadyne did was to let the roller dies wear much longer which had the effect of making heavier nails so therefore less nails per lb. At some point they even increased the dimensions of the nails so there would be even less per lb. Are you getting the picture now. So you were not getting what you paid for back then probably by a factor of 20% and you didn't even know it. You use nails by the piece so packaging them by the count is a fairer way to sell them. The packing machine packs the boxes by weight, but is constantly calibrated to insure the the count is correct due to the slight manufacturing variations allowed. The count is set to supply 2-3% over to ensure that you receive what you pay for. I rest my case. I was there you were not.

As I stated earlier the price had to go up. A whole modern day facility was set up which took the machines and workers out of sweat shop conditions. Anybody that has ever toured the Capewell factory with me has always been impressed with it is and the nice conditions for the employees. They also usually say it is amazing that the nails don't cost more, after they see what goes into it.

Had Mustad not bought Capewell and Cooper back then, the supply of nails would have been in drastic short supply and the price of them wouild have gone up a lot more for awhile, until someone else entered the picture. I do agree with you that it is a shame to see our products out sourced overseas. I have no control over that part. Mustad tools have been made in Europe from the getgo. Unfortunately, this is the way business is done these days. Our farrier industry uses products now from all over the world.

As I indicated in a post above I am sorry if I was harsh, I shouildn't take this personally. I am not lying to you, so don't insinuate that I am. And Burnie did hold Mustad in high regard, you can ask Blaine or Baker about that. He would not have worked with us if it were any other way.

No body at Mustad tells me what to say. I have witnessed all I talk about and I am just trying to set the facts straight. When you say "ounces of pennies while extracting tons of cash", maybe you should back that up with actual figures, otherwise it is just rhetoric.

So there is my explaining, what do you say.

Steve Kraus, CJF
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 16 Jun 2007 03:26 #72

  • Mike Ferrara
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Instead of discussing tge generalities of multinational corporations, someone from Mustad can jump in a discuss the specifics of simonds rasp manufacturing.

What percentage of factory cost is accounted for by direct labor? (before and after the move?)

What is the volume of rasps manufactured and how much of the process is currently automated?

What effect does the move have on indirect labor and expenses? I ask because some coutries have tons of cheap non-skilled labor but no technical folks so you spend a fortune having engineers and the like travel back and forth all the time. You often find that you can build lots of product for what managers on junkets spend just on meals LOL...never mind the entertainment.

Shipping costs?

Don't get me wrong, there are some products where it's perfectly appropriate to chase cheap labor...I just never had the chance to move one of those when I was a manufacturing engineer. Profit is good but the moves that I saw did not increase profit. I am, however, pretty familiar with most of the tricks used to make it look like it's a profitable idea.
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 16 Jun 2007 03:54 #73

  • Tennessee
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Why did Simonds decide to sell? Were they going under? I ask because I would think that a profit producing company for one would be a profit producing company for another. In other words, they were making money producing in the USA. Why can't Mustad?

Jeremy
Jeremy Rigsby
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 16 Jun 2007 11:45 #74

John Zarzecny wrote:
G'Day Mr. Kraus

Thank you, for your response, however the Colombian made Mustad rasps have already entered the USA pipeline.

I have been told by a number of individuals that these rasps are NOT branded "COLOMBIA", as required by US customs laws. :confused:

I believe that every farrier in the USA has the right to know where the tools he purchases are manufactured. Does Mustad concur??

We stamp the "country-of-origin" on each and every rasp we sell, thus there is absolutely no doubt in the end users mind as to where the product is made.

To my knowledge, the other major brands in the marketplace also brand their rasps accordingly.

At your convenience, please advise if Mustad will brand all future rasps with "COLOMBIA".

Best Regards
G'Day Mr. Kraus

Your silence on the marking issue puzzles me. :confused:

The branding of rasps is easy to accomplish and even easier to determine (visually inspect the heel or shoulder of each rasp).

You will not be divulging any "top secret" manufacturing process.

Is Mustad branding the country-of-origin (COLOMBIA) on all their USA bound rasps??

Best Regards
John Zarzecny
Purveyor of Wood-Miller rasps.

"Politeness and respect won't cost you five cents, they are free to give"
"I'd rather be one hour early, than one minute late"
quote: My Dad
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 17 Jun 2007 13:15 #75

  • anvilsteve
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John-
My silence on the rasp marking is only because I have been very busy, there has also been people out of office for me to speak to, so you will just need to patient. I will have an answer and I'll post it when I know rather then speculate.

Steve Kraus, CJF
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