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TOPIC: Mustad's Latest Acquisition

Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 13:18 #1

  • George Geist
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
I've just learned that Mustad has bought Simonds and subsidiaries Heller etc.

Their American operations are being shut down eliminating the jobs of everyone employed by them as they move operations to Colombia.

I know Wall St as well as many of the globalists on these boards will react with jubilation, but am I the only guy left who still gets annoyed by stuff like this?
George
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 13:33 #2

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Its the global market. It will go right round the world and drive up the labour rate as skills improve and raise globally and it will eventually end up back in America!

Or better still the UK! ;) Where we have a minimum wage and a lot of employment law and statutory contractual rights that drive our labour cost well up.

Consider the electronics etc that went to Taiwan all gone now and pushed to China and a lot already on its way back to the UK ..... but only the higher skilled stuff not the lower skilled, lower valued work .... so far

The thing is that whilst I personally don't like things going round the world, its an inevitable fact of life.

Ask yourself when you go to buy the likes of a new car or piece of equipment - are you always looking for best value or lower cost or is your opening question "where is it and all its parts manufactured"

If you're looking to buy on price, its inevitable that the multi-nationals will be chasing best value in terms of operating costs and if they've a high labour constituent to their product then there's only 2 ways to drive the price down:

Mechanise and reduce the requirement for man-power (and jobs) - and as an Engineering Manager in industry, I spent a lot of my career doing just that!

or chase a lower labour rate
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 13:54 #3

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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George Geist in gray

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I've just learned that Mustad has bought Simonds and subsidiaries Heller etc.

Their American operations are being shut down eliminating the jobs of everyone employed by them as they move operations to Colombia.

I know Wall St as well as many of the globalists on these boards will react with jubilation, but am I the only guy left who still gets annoyed by stuff like this?


Nossir, you ain't the only one on this forum who can think of an ad absurdum conclusion to the avarice of multinational corporations and lack of protection for American jobs. If enough skilled jobs are outsourced and offshored and enough illegal aliens allowed into this country to fill the menial jobs, sooner or later, there won't be a Middle Class in the US, there'll only be haves and have-nots.

Personally, I find the "one world" concept so dear to the multinationals to be repugnant. Folks sometimes forget that any multinational's allegiance is to its stockholders, not the state, not the workers, and damn sure not the consumer!
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 14:07 #4

  • George Geist
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True enough Mr Stovall,

Back when they bought out Capewell I thought it would have been really cool for all American horseshoers to have bought as much stock in Capewell as they could afford, thus sandbagging their buyout as well as sort of giving us all our own nail company. The AFA would never say a negative word because they liked their advertising and contest prize money so there again they were useless in that idea.

Nonetheless, it was impossible for 2 reasons first and foremost horseshoers would never be that cooperative, and secondly as I learned later Capewell was never publicly traded so it was not possible anyway.

Witnessing this country's dismantling of our industrial base and machine tooling capacity I find alarming. It is nothing less than a threat to national security.

Solution is simple. Import tarriffs. Any business that sends jobs out of the country should be taxed so heavily on their imported products that it would remove any profit from doing so.
George
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 15:06 #5

I went to college and came out with a BS- Computer System Engineering, AS - Electronics Enineering and I'm half way through my Masters in Software Engineering (which I'll never finish).

Been out of the Biz since '01 when all our job functions were farmed out to India... NOW and only now 6 years later are they figuiring out it was a mistake...

I still get phone calls from head hunters from time to time for me to come back to work.

Last guy....I told him sure!! I'll close down my Farrier Business for: 100k net signon bonus (due 1st day of work), 90k/yr/salary on a 5 year contract, tele-commuting, 4 weeks vacation, 2 week sick leave, health insurance, and if they break the 5 year contract they pay me rest of the 5 years of the contract..

Everything is farmed out over seas these days!!! Look at ATT Wireless 411 directory service... This used to be done by MetroOne Communications where I worked for a short period until ATT sent it of where??? guess.... Overseas...

Last I checked its not cost effective to send horses overseas to be shod or trimmed, so I'm safe for awhile until everyone has a transporter to beam their horses to India, China, Twaiwan or where ever to be shod for 50 cents..

Sigh............... :mad:
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 15:20 #6

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Solution is simple. Import tarriffs. Any business that sends jobs out of the country should be taxed so heavily on their imported products that it would remove any profit from doing so.
George

I don't think so.

I've been heavily involved in moving jobs out of the country and eventually my own job was moved. You have to do it better (more cost effectively) or the solution is artificial and any benefits will be temporary at best.

In most cases that I've been involved in, moving manufacturing out of the country was, in itself, a temporary solution that usually only serves the needs of a small number of people...To correct Tom it isn't stock holders. Further ist's usually only a theoretical advantage that is never financially realized. There are just too many propblems and hidden costs that aren't accounted for when the decision to move is made. The problem, if you want to consider it a problem, is one of a lack of ethics and competence on the part of those running our corporations.

Example...average labor cost for automotive controles manufactured by Eaton Automotive controles devision (which no longer exists) in the US was 10%. After production was moved to Mexico, the labor content was still 10% dispite the fact that assembly workers here made $10/hour and Mexican assembly workers made $1/hour. That's right, it took them 10 times the number of man hours to do the same work in Mexico. Now add in extra shipping costs, engineering problems, travel expenses of US employees and quality problems that result in non-direct labor and it even gets worse. I mentioned that Eaton Automotive controles devision no longer exists...Eaton sold to Delphi. Of course I was working there when it was ITW Automotive controles before ITW sold it to Eaton. The game here is "Pass the Buck".

I could move on to discuss the result of the move of Siemens meter manufacturing (no longer Siemens) to Mexico but it's the same thing.

The fact is that direct labor is a small percentage of the overall production costs of many products. Even if you could save a large percetage of direct labor costs (which they don't), it still accounts for a small percentage of savings. That is exactly the reason that we don't automate or otherwise improve manufacturing capability here...the payback just isn't there. The savings don't justify the costs.

When management screws up and gets on the hook for nickles and dimes due to the failure of their own hairbrain projects and costs due to implementing fads like six sigma, sppd, tops, tops+, becomming a service provider or whatever, a move that saves a theoretical dollar value gets the individual off the hook long enough to get another job or promoted before the invoice comes in. The small theoretical savings forcasted by a move gives the appearance of producing the 3 or 4 million dollars that these *****s are on the hook for to the corporation.

Teriffs aren't the answer. The answer is to have managers who are knowledeable about the business they are managing and talented at managing. Unfortunately that's not what we have. We place our stock in degrees and certifications. All these peple have degrees and certifications a-plenty yet they flat out suck at what they do.

Having seen first hand and personally having been involved with the elimination of thousands of US jobs due to the total incompetence and complete lack of ethics on the part of a small handfull of individuals, I said "screw it" and went back to shoeing horses at just shy of 50 years of age. I'll take my ass whoopins under a horse or eyeball to eyeball from now on, thanks anyway. What is it that Popeye said? "Thats all I can stands and I can't stands no more!"?

And what do I find when I come back? A bunch of *******s pushing buzz words and certifications around. LOL same old chit.
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 15:23 #7

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Douglas_Armstrong wrote:
100k net signon bonus (due 1st day of work), 90k/yr/salary on a 5 year contract, tele-commuting, 4 weeks vacation, 2 week sick leave, health insurance, and if they break the 5 year contract they pay me rest of the 5 years of the contract..

I kinda have my doubts that most horseshoers have such a deal, sounds good to me :)
Last I checked its not cost effective to send horses overseas to be shod or trimmed, so I'm safe for awhile until everyone has a transporter to beam their horses to India, China, Twaiwan or where ever to be shod for 50 cents

The ace in the hole that other countries have over us is medical insurance. Our lack of a public health plan in addition to the insane, treasonous, trade policies we live under will keep us non-competitive.

General Motors has publicly stated that they pay 8 times the money in medical benefits to American workers than is paid by any other country. If these parasitic insurance companies weren't sucking blood as they do, think how much more salary and wage money would be available.

It might even require less than 2 incomes to run a household if not for that!
George
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 15:46 #8

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Having seen first hand and personally having been involved with the elimination of thousands of US jobs due to the total incompetence and complete lack of ethics on the part of a small handfull of individuals, I said "screw it" and went back to shoeing horses at just shy of 50 years of age. I'll take my ass whoopins under a horse or eyeball to eyeball from now on, thanks anyway. What is it that Popeye said? "Thats all I can stands and I can't stands no more!"?

Certainly can't blame you for that. I dare say I doubt most of us really mesh very well in those types of environments. I know I never did, nor did I ever play workplace politics very well.

Trouble is as much as we would like to be separate and isolated it can't help but affect us as well. You and Doug say jobs can come back when a mistake is realized. In high tech maybe so, but in manufacturing and machine tooling not at all. Plants are dismantled, equipment is sold off or destroyed, and perhaps worst of all we don't even have the skilled workforce anymore.
George
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 16:27 #9

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Trouble is as much as we would like to be separate and isolated it can't help but affect us as well. You and Doug say jobs can come back when a mistake is realized. In high tech maybe so, but in manufacturing and machine tooling not at all. Plants are dismantled, equipment is sold off or destroyed, and perhaps worst of all we don't even have the skilled workforce anymore.
George


True, and our steel industry may have been an early example. Tooling and skill both represent an up-front inventment that isn't going to be made if a payback isn't possible in a certain amount of time...a barrier to entry so-to-speak.

Manufacturing that has left, isn't likely to come back unless someone other than the manufacturer foots the bill or some really slick manager works real hard putting together a long term justification. In the case of moves (as apposed to outsourcing) the tools usually still exist but moving them and starting up production isn't always so simple. Facilities are another big issue. That can be a huge cost and corporations look to municipalities for money, tax incentives and so on to lighten the burden. More than likely, they will take their lumps and just blame it on whatever is handy and conveniently out of their control.
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 16:31 #10

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Mike Ferrara in gray, deletia

I've been heavily involved in moving jobs out of the country and eventually my own job was moved. You have to do it better (more cost effectively) or the solution is artificial and any benefits will be temporary at best.

In most cases that I've been involved in, moving manufacturing out of the country was, in itself, a temporary solution that usually only serves the needs of a small number of people...To correct Tom it isn't stock holders.


Yessir, it is most assuredly the stock holders of multinationals who benefit from the outsourcing and offshoring of US jobs; furthermore, the avarice fueling the trend ain't exactly new. (e.g., Consider the historical fiscal migration of the textile trade from New England, to the Middle Atlantic, to the South, to Central and South America: Who benefited?) The truth of the matter is that every for-profit corporation exists for the benefit of the stockholders. Some are run better than others, but a corporation's primary allegiance is always to its stockholders.

Further ist's usually only a theoretical advantage that is never financially realized. There are just too many propblems and hidden costs that aren't accounted for when the decision to move is made. The problem, if you want to consider it a problem, is one of a lack of ethics and competence on the part of those running our corporations.

I beg to differ. One can only wonder why there is virtually no heavy manufacturing in the United States. Or, for that matter, there's not a helluva lot of light manufacturing either. When was the last time you bought a US made fishing reel? TV set? Stick of bar stock? One can only wonder when heavy manufacturing is going to return to the US, given that most of the equipment has been scrápped or sold off and no infrastructure exists that would support its return.

Small wonder the US is becoming a two tier society in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 17:05 #11

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Folks sometimes forget that any multinational's allegiance is to its stockholders, not the state, not the workers, and damn sure not the consumer!
I've got to disagree with you.

I too don't like a lot of what the global market compels.

However truth is a lot of it is most definitely consumer driven.

A lot of customers make price driven purchasing decisions. Either because they don't care, aren't really interested or aren't in a financial position to have the luxury of quality or ethical based choice decisions.

Its true to say that we're all looking for "best value" "more for less" and that compels manufacturing organisations to reduce operating costs. We all expect to pay less for the likes of cars and electrical goods than we used to or else to get more fancy gadgets and bits and bobs for our money.

I personally don't like competing where the playing field isn't level and I don't like it when companies go chasing the likes of low labour costs. And I am very mindful that with that ordinarily comes reduced standards of health and safety, less employment protection rights, reduced environmental controls, lower hygiene and health, less regulation and statutory control.

However in truth when folks go to buy a new car or new electrical goods, they usually want to know the price and what features/equipment it has. Wayyyyy down the list (if ever included) is "where is it and all its compenent parts manufactured?"

And all those who don't ask are driving that consumer market.

I manufacture horse drawn carriages and I can't even buy the component parts for the price of a manufactured one bought in from Poland or Chzeckoslovakia. There, not only is the labour cost low, but the steel industry is heavily subsidised and there's virtually no statutory requirements regarding environmental controls and health and safety.

Likewise I can't rear a cow or a sheep for anywhere near the low cost in the USA. Again we have legislation to protect the low paid - so a minimum wage and a VERY rigourous system of control, passporting and animal welfare that drives up operating costs.

Now personally I won't buy anything made from steel in Poland or Chzeckoslovakia. Likewise I won't buy any meat from the USA or anywhere outside the UK. And I won't buy electrical goods from China or Columbia. But you know, I pay more than most and I recognise that I'm fortunate to have the luxury of choice.

In general though the global manufacturers have an obligation to their consumers, shareholders and employees. And to keep their market share and profits high in order for the shareholder to get a look in, first and foremost they have to sell what the consumer wants.

I think its VERY naive to think that the consumer doesn't drive what is happening and not happening
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 17:34 #12

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Tom Stovall, CJF]Mike Ferrara in gray, deletia

I've been heavily involved in moving jobs out of the country and eventually my own job was moved. You have to do it better (more cost effectively) or the solution is artificial and any benefits will be temporary at best.

In most cases that I've been involved in, moving manufacturing out of the country was, in itself, a temporary solution that usually only serves the needs of a small number of people...To correct Tom it isn't stock holders.


Yessir, it is most assuredly the stock holders of multinationals who benefit from the outsourcing and offshoring of US jobs wrote:

Well, they may exist for the benefit of the stock holders but the stock holders don't always benefit by corporate actions and within a given devision it's often politics more than stock holder benefits that drive decsions.

Keep in mind that stock holders own stocks in a corporation. A corporation often consists of many devisions. Those devisions are baught, modified and sold. even when the stock holders make out (often they don't), the individual devision sometimes goes down the tubes. That's why I made a point of mentioning that the devisions that I moved are no longer owned by the corporations that moved them. These days, I think some of the investment groups are even better at this game than the big corporations. They buy and sell at a profit but sometimes the devision being baught and sold is destroyed in the process. Sometimes these moves are made solely for the purpose of making things look better on paper in preporation to be sold. there are all kinds of games...too many to go into here and I doubt I even know all of them but I've seen a few.

Out sourcing is a whole different subject. I was in manufacturing long enough to see things change from the days when we brought things in house (technology and tooling) for cost savings and strategic positioning to the days when we shipped it all out and tried to get paid for doing nothing but playing middle man.

I really don't know how to explain it in a couple of paragraphs. In the "old" days each of our plants had molding, stamping, plating screw machine and so on. If we could design it, we could build it. When a new technology was incorporated into a design, we brough it in house whenever possible. We actually got paid for value added work. Today, you hire someone to design a thing and hire mirades of others to fabricate parts, someone else to assemble, test and what not. then you expect to get paid for making all the phone calls. Our plants went from 3000 employees to 300 to ZERO. We used to joke that eventually all they would need was one little old lady and a phone. We were joking but it really happened. The siemens Lafeyette plant is still there but it isn't siemens and the building is mostly empty except for a few offices. BTW, the city paid for a good portion of that new building on the promise that the business was expanding. Someone should be in jail.

Further ist's usually only a theoretical advantage that is never financially realized. There are just too many propblems and hidden costs that aren't accounted for when the decision to move is made. The problem, if you want to consider it a problem, is one of a lack of ethics and competence on the part of those running our corporations.

I beg to differ. One can only wonder why there is virtually no heavy manufacturing in the United States. Or, for that matter, there's not a helluva lot of light manufacturing either. When was the last time you bought a US made fishing reel? TV set? Stick of bar stock? One can only wonder when heavy manufacturing is going to return to the US, given that most of the equipment has been scrápped or sold off and no infrastructure exists that would support its return.

Heavy manufacturing isn't going to return unless something really drastic changes. However, the steel industry and the electronics industry are very different situations. the moves that I was part of in the automotive and metering industries were just chasing cheap labor to make things look better on paper. As I said, labor content was a small part of the total cost so there easn't much to be gained even if it all worked out. Once you consider all the costs involved that aren't accounted for by looking at the direct labor standard (which often goes up) you see that the move is a big white elephant...it loses money.

When I say that the benefit is theoretical, what I mean is that the move is forcasted to be profitable but it often doesn't work out that way. The ficticious forcast gets some big shot out of trouble and the truth of the matter just gets burried in the accounting. ie, the cost of direct labor/hour drops. That looks good. You have to turn the page to see what went up. They aren't even good enough to be evil. They are ****** enough to not know where the money is going or why. There is no accountability

I don't want this to get too long but it gets worse. Some of the accounting systems being used make it impossible to know where the money goes. For instance, in the old days, we knew what the standard cost and varience in labor, materials, returns rework or whatever per line, product or assembly. We manufacturing engineers used those numbers to plan out activities. The goals were simple, to keep an oporation to standard and to reduce the standard. One being a cost avoidence and the other being a cost savings. The "simplified" accounting systems being used today just give total numbers. You might know that you have 10 million dollars in s**** but figuring out where the s**** came from might not be so easy. You might know that you have a labor varience for the plant but you don't know which line or product has the varience let alone which oporations. In the "old days" I would get called on the carpet for each part, assembly, yield at a tester ect. In the end no one knew enough about what was going on to even know what I should be doing or if I was doing it. They couldn't even define a problem let alone know if I was taking care of it. Hell, I had no way of knowing where the problems were because they took away all my tools.

I just don't even know how to describe the gross incompetence.

Small wonder the US is becoming a two tier society in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

No wonder at all and it's going to get worse.
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 18:15 #13

  • Mike Ferrara
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The things that shouldn't be ignored are that there are times when it makes sense to chase cheap labor. I don't complain about that and it isn't even a fraction of what's going on.

An example...if you have a low volume, short lived product with high labor content (especially if it is unskilled labor) then by all means look for cheap labor if you want to make money. You don't want to pay someone $15/hour to do a mindless job if there is someone willing to do it for $1/hour and they can do it just as well.

Lets look at another example though. When I worked for Eato automotive controls devision I automated several complete assembly lines. I spent several million dollars doing so and those machines are presently sitting in a corner rusting in Mexico.The labor content was almost NOTHING. In theory, when they moved, they saved a percentage of a labor content that was near ZERO. A big poiece of zero is near zero. Is there anyone here who doesn't understand the math and needs me to go through it? LOL. Shipping went up, machine maintenance went up, you have a bunch of MBA's doing weekly junkets down there to visit their Mexican girl friends and ooops, they couldn't keep the stuff running so they turned it off, put in the corner and went back to doing things manually. Sorry folks the labor content of those products went wy the F...up. Now, do you want to talk about why Eaton sold the devision to Delphi? LOL

when I moved to Siemens they had just moved a bunch of lines to Mexico. I was there and saw first hand where they had ten times the number of people on those lines that had formerly been mostly automated (the automation was mostly shut off by the time I was there). The last line I moved was low volume, high tech and somewhat labor intensive. Ok, they move it to Mexico and now the stuff just doesn't work. Of course the engineers who know how the stuff works and could fix it are gone too. Do they admit a mistake and move it back? Nope. They discontinue the product line and sell the devision. LOL and the jerk who thought it all up gets promoted.

BTW, you know why they moved? The VP decided that we were going to be a service organization that sold meters rather than a meter manufacturer...he wanted to do "systems". We partered with a bunch of individual little companies on these "systems". These companies were mostly owned by friends of his and were completely unproven with unproven technologies. Proprietary technologies, BTW, that we didn't really have access to or control over. Companies run by inventment groups with nothing at all being sold on the market. Am I being clear here? These are companies that have never turned a single dime of profit! I can only guess at what under the table deals were going on. He got several million dollars from corporate to financed his little ecapade and we lost our butts. After a couple of years of hammering away nothing worked and all these little companies left us holding the bad and left the VP in a bind to deliver corporate a return on their inventment. So? He decides to move. The math on the theoretical direct labor saving is pretty straight forward and wam-bam-thank you mam...here's your money back. Well gosh, I doubt there's anyone left who even knows what happened. He is safe and last I heard, he still has a job.

Don't confuse this with real research and development. We were buying bridges.
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 05 Jun 2007 20:07 #14

  • ray steele
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George,
Where have you been?

I mentioned on this forum that Mustad bought Simonds rasp div. last November, John Z . reiterated the fact. That was 6 months ago. The place was packed up and shipped by the end of December,06. I'm told and have observed that they ,the new owners are testing product as early as late April,07.


It's funny and sad that you bring this up at this late date , to me anyways shows that the American farrier is too busy counting his/her money but not watching his/her industry. My read is we've become too fat and lazy and that folks in other countries are hungry for the same type of things that we take for granted or that we feel are owed to us because...

Today I rcd nail samples from a very small company in one of those countries
that we call third world, this company contacted me in January of 07 with some samples of e head nails wanting to know if I could sell them in the US. I explained the city head situation as best that I could and they sent me some E3 samples saying that they felt that the American farrier would change becausethe price would be cheaper. I explained that ,that is not always the case and the reasons why I felt that way, May 7,07 I rcd a message that they thought that I might be correct, today I rcd samples of 5 sb nails and a full acct of the tremendous costs to change tooling to attempt to enter this market.

Six years ago an American Company approched me about making horseshoe nails, I explained about the city head preference , they called me last week saying that they were working on the dies, was I still willing to help.

Look at our leather industry, the steel industry etc. it is not off shore strickly because of labor, it's off shore I believe because they are dirty industries. If you drove through Pittsburg PA or Birmingham AL. in the 60s you drove throgh smog before smog the word was invented. Our society does not want dirty, case in point, how many of you change your shirt between barns so that you show up looking like you do not do dirty work? In fact our work is dirty, but we don't want it to appear that way, we are "professionals"! well steel and leather etc is also dirty, and it costs extra otherwise.

I had a call last week from a farrier looking for some simonds big hoof rasps. I couldn't fill the order, he went on that Simonds and now Mustad had lured him into using this rasp and that now they have let him down because they have not kept up supply. I suggested that he try another brand, and he said that farriers cannot just change nails, rasps etc., that sometimes they are working on $400,000.00 horses and one cannot just change. Now my little inside knowledge, this farrier has been shoeing horses as long as I , 32 plus years, Simonds Big Hoof did not exist then , nor did Delta nails, nor did St Croix, etc. , point is that farrier made some changes in those years. What he was really saying is , I don't want to change.

Farriers ,I believe need to take some control. To take some control means that you need to be able to change and be willing to invest in your own product no matter where it is made, if you want to control it you must own it! owning it means taking risk! It means that you might need to get dirty.

Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:Mustad's Latest Acquisition 06 Jun 2007 03:59 #15

  • T.N. Trosin
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George Geist wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I've just learned that Mustad has bought Simonds and subsidiaries Heller etc.

Their American operations are being shut down eliminating the jobs of everyone employed by them as they move operations to Colombia.

I know Wall St as well as many of the globalists on these boards will react with jubilation, but am I the only guy left who still gets annoyed by stuff like this?
George

Oh George you lovable communist. Where have you been I found out about this back in Oct/ Nov.

Yes we all get ticked off when money moves out of the country becuse it leads to less leasure activity which in it's own round about way means less horses to shoe. As the world is preocupied with what Paris will be wearing to jail, how much coke Britney had in her system the last time she dropped her baby and who Anna Nicole's babies daddy is (shocked as I'm sure you all were when it wasn't Mr. Stovall) jobs get shipped overseas, kids die for no good reason and people get poorer as a general rule. But we get it better and cheeper than the American will produce it.

No easy answer George
Soliceter General Warning: This message may not have been spell checked for your protection
Just a piece of advice, think to yourself is this something I would say in front of a client, before your click the submit button.
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