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TOPIC: Certification - By Whom

RE:Certification - By Whom 05 May 2007 17:19 #31

  • Rick Burten
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Jack,

I have two P H D's!

1. Post Hole Digger

2. Piled Higher and Deeper

:D :p :D
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Certification - By Whom 05 May 2007 20:59 #32

  • Mike Ferrara
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Jack Evers wrote:
I have a PhD in engineering and even that only allows me to do engineering work if supervised by a professionally registered engineer. To work on my own or be in charge of a project, I had to be tested for professional registration and must upgrade with a certain number of CEU's (continueing education units) every few years. Few horseshoers work under anyone's supervision except for some vet-farrier situations and few or none are subject to continuing education requirements.

Jack CJF, PhD, PE

Interesting. What kind of engineering were you doing.

I don't have a PhD but I workes as an engineer for almost 17 years. My immediate supervisors were usually the manufacturing engineering manager although I also spent some time in other positions where I reported to plant managers or oporation managers.

Only once, for a very short time, did I have an immediate supervisor who had any expertise in my field. In other words, I was almost always, "the authority" in my field or my part of the project. So, while I wasn't usually mnanaging "a project" per say, I was always managing my part of the project...developing tooling/automation for production of a product or developing test methods and test equipment (usually automated) for a product. In some positions or projects I had technicians or Jr engineers working for me. Sometimes on a temporary project basis and sometimes as full time direct reports.

It's hard to describe the charachterize the organizational structure because there were so many organizational changes over the years. In that 17 years I had several different titles in several different organizational structures even though I only worked for 2 different companies. These weren't small or fly by night companies. I spent about 10 years with the Automotive and Appliance devision of Eaton corp. The two split off and I ended up in the Automotive devision. Right out of school, I actually started with the Auotomotive controls devision of ITW but that devision was purchased by Eaton. The rest of my time in Engineering I worked for the Meetering devision of Siemens. The Eaton devision that I worked for has since been sold to Delphi and the Siemens devision that I worked for has changed hands several different times and has reverted to the using the name of Landis & Gyr though I lost track of who owns it now.

I've never been a registered engineer and I don't remember ever working with one. Both companies have moved all the manufacturing and manufacturing related engineering functions to Mexico. I spent most of my last year as an engineer in Mexico "training" a young Mexican engineer. I'm not sure what his educational back ground is (probably one of those technical schools along the border) but he certainly isn't a registered engineer. He isn't very experienced and he doesn't make very much money either.
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RE:Certification - By Whom 05 May 2007 21:20 #33

  • Mike Ferrara
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tbloomer wrote:
Thing is, it will be an entry level job. Nobody with any sense would hire an MIT grad to be a project manager straight out of school. I don't think Wharton Business school grads are hired as CEOs right out of school either. Also these schools have very high entrance requirements. I think the entrance requirements for most farrier schools is probably determined by whether or not your tuition check bounces.

It depends. At the low end I think that a degree gets you in the door and it's up tp you after that. On the other hasnd, on the hight end, I've seen MBA's with very little experience in anything (marketing is often where they start) managing and destroying large devisions of large corporations.

I was already married with children when I started college. I took a job as an "electrician" with a company that designed and built conveyors to get experience while I went to school. When I got my associates degree I took a job in a lab where my main responsibility was to conduct mindless, manual, repetative testing. When no one was looking I automated quit a bit of it. My bodd wanted to fire me because he didn't like automation. Fortunately his boss thought it was pretty cool and he promoted me to a position where I worked for him. I didn't have an engineering degree so they changed the title to something that HR would go along with.

I kept going to school, kept pulling neat tricks out of my sleeve and I kept getting promoted until I was honored with the lofty (that's a joke) title of Sr. Engineer. On several occasions they tried to groom me for management positions but my habit of directly stating the truth as I saw it always thwarted their efforts.

Over the years I worked with some really talented people though they are in the extreme minority. Big degrees are held by the majority these days. I have NEVER found that you can pick out the talented ones by the degrees or certifications they hold.

The older I get and the more experience I gain in everything, the less of a respector of degrees and certifications I am. It's all mostly bull **** and it saddens me to see all the emphasis on such nonsense in farriery. I'm pretty sure it's going to eventually ruin the trade but hopefull not until I get tired of shoeing horses and have moved on to something else.
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RE:Certification - By Whom 07 May 2007 12:28 #34

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
. . . but my habit of directly stating the truth as I saw it always thwarted their efforts.
In corporate america you rise to the top by kissing the a s s above you.
Over the years I worked with some really talented people though they are in the extreme minority.
Very rarely are these talented people put in charge of corporate divisions.
Big degrees are held by the majority these days. I have NEVER found that you can pick out the talented ones by the degrees or certifications they hold.
HR is prevented by liability law from giving a bad job reference to a former employee. When hiring new employees, they have no useful information to determine which is the best person for the job except what they can verify on their resume. So they wind up giving the job to somebody that knows somebody.

I had a boss once that got promoted to management because she was pretty and wore short dresses. She spent most of her time in or hovering near the door of her VPs office.
The older I get and the more experience I gain in everything, the less of a respector of degrees and certifications I am.
I agree with you. Degrees and certifications are meant to determine entry level requirements, not experience and results.
It's all mostly bull **** and it saddens me to see all the emphasis on such nonsense in farriery.
In my opinion it is nonsense for a horse owner to pick a farrier based on nothing more than the person applying for the job "saying" they are a farrier. The biggest growth in the industry is new first-time horse owners. Most of these folks can't get on the books of a well established competent farrier. So they wind up asking around until they find somebody who is willing to "show up." Therefore the lowest common denominator in the trade is anybody who says they are a farrier and actually shows up to do the work.

Conversely there are quite a few well established farriers who manage to convince enough people to part with their money in exchange for nailing on whatever comes out of the box and basing their evaluation of the work on how fast it was done and long it stays nailed. I don't see regulation of the supply as an answer to this situation. If you educate the demand, the supply will adapt.
I'm pretty sure it's going to eventually ruin the trade but hopefull not until I get tired of shoeing horses and have moved on to something else.
I've yet to see any trade or profession ruined by education and certification. While there may be a few exceptions, Forrest Gump comes to mind, most people who suceed in life do so by pursueing knowledge, applying it, and learning from experience. If the market is educated about minimum standards, then it stands to reason that demand for minimum standards will stimulate a supply.

Right now the minimum standard to be a farrier is showing up. It sort of goes along with the minimum standard for horse ownership -which is accepting a free horse from somebody that wants to give their horse away.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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