make up natural cara make up make up tutorial make up korea make up minimalis make up artis make up mata belajar make up make up wardah alat make up makeup forever indonesia makeup artist jakarta tips make up barbie make up natural make up make up wajah make up pesta make up syahrini makeup mata makeup minimalis peralatan make up make up cantik make up mac make up kit jual make up make up sederhana perlengkapan make up gambar make up vidio make up cara makeup minimalis wardah make up make up pac make up glamour cara memakai makeup make up panggung harga make up make up modern make up alami make up dasar pixy make up make up muslimah make up oriflame make up jepang makeover cosmetic make up ultima make up sariayu grosir make up makeup fantasi makeup pesta tas makeup langkah make up make up pria make up malam alat makeup tahapan make up produk make up shading make up mak up make up kebaya make up jilbab make up inez make up simpel contoh make up cara ber makeup makeup wajah tanpa make up make up terbaru toko make up mac makeup indonesia make up soft urutan make up trik make up makeover makeup brand gusnaldi make up paket make up panduan make up jual makeup brush make up bagus alat2 make up make up gusnaldi aplikasi make up alat alat makeup dasar make up inez make up peralatan makeup make up wanita make up berjilbab make up tebal sejarah make up make up maybeline make up branded make up siang tata cara makeup reseller make up make up muslim make up maybelin warna make up tips make up artist rias make up make up mata make up artis belajar make up make up artist kursus make up kuas make up make up forever indonesia jual make up mac indonesia make up make up artist indonesia harga make up forever jual make up online make up pac make up forever jakarta make up oriflame jual make up forever make up online shop indonesia harga make up sekolah make up grosir make up harga make up maybelline jual make up murah make up terbaru mak up mac make up indonesia sofia make up make up kit murah mac makeup indonesia produk make up jual make up kit make up store indonesia make up forever academy jakarta toko make up online jual make up set jual make up mac make up beauty jual make up branded produk make up mac make up forever harga make up mac indonesia produk make up artis jual make up palette produk make up forever make up palette murah before after make up pengantin before after make up sendiri before n after hasil makeup contoh make up karakter contoh riasan pengantin before n after harga make up wisuda harga make up artist harga make up forever make up wisuda rias wisuda di jogja Daftar harga make up forever daftar harga make up mac daftar harga kosmetik make up forever makeup wisuda harga makeup wisuda kursus make up di yogyakarta kursus make up di jogja kursus make up jogja kursus make up yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di jogja kursus make up artist di jogja kursus rias pengantin di jogja kursus rias di yogyakarta kursus tata rias di yogyakarta rias pengantin muslim jogja jasa kreasi jilbab wisuda yogyakarta jasa rias make up wisuda murah bagus bisa dpanggil tempat make uf di jigja yang bagus rias wisuda murah dan berkualitas yogyakarta pakar kreasi jilbab di jogja make uper natural yogya make up wisuda hijab area jogja make up dan kreasi jilbab yang bagus di jogja jasa make up natural untuk wisuda jogja makeup jogja make up jogja makeup yogyakarta make up yogyakarta makeup wisuda jogja make up wisuda jogja make up wisuda yogyakarta makeup wisuda yogyakarta
Tuesday June 28, 2022
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Certification - By Whom

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 02:19 #16

Rick,

Geez, goes to show how much I have paid attention to what's going on with certification. Maybe if I belonged to the AFA I'd be more aware of the change. Of course, my experience with the testing has swayed my desire to join the association :)

Certification is a good thing, and one would hope our industry would attract individuals that willingly pursue it, regardless of the issuing institution. I look at it this way, I'm lucky to have the opportunity to combine my love for horses, my interest in anatomy and mechanics, and my need to have an occupation that exercises my mind and body. I'm taking advantage of whatever system is in place. I've read on this board 1,000 times, educate the public, make owners aware of hoof care / certification and fingers point in every direction except to ourselves. It's up to us to educate our clients, our day-to-day interaction is our best avenue, we are the ultimate promoters of our chosen profession, and any certification we want to promote. We forget where most of us start in the profession, dealing with backyard ******s. But, I was a backyard ****** 15 years ago. I'm willing to spend some time with these people because maybe one of them might grow up to be a farrier that gives a darn one day. The association that stays in the forefront and attracts farriers that willingly pursue education & certification will end up as the industry standard measure. AFA? BWFA? Does it really matter? Good luck to each association 'cause this is a cranky, opinionated lot of folks and I don't know how anyone could sort out this mess!
Amanda Gibson, CF
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 02:45 #17

  • Gary Hill
  • Gary Hill's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5298
  • Thank you received: 6
  • Karma: 4
Hey Amanda, remember you have learned all this info right here on horseshoes.com, not the AFA site! When they want to be the "Leader" in the Farrier Community, I would figure that more folks would tune in to that site than this one? So really ," Where are you getting more info from?" All I am saying is give credit where credit is due?
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 07:52 #18

If I understood correctly I'm a (courtesy) AFA member, so lemme share some of the experience I have with our Dutch Farrier Association. Or in Dutch: de NEDERLANDSE VERENIGING VAN HOEFSMEDEN ;)

In my opinion there are several problems people are trying to get a solution for here, that no organisation will ever be able to manage.

Licensing, and certification (from a educational and marketing angle, I don't really see the difference by the way) will force an organisation to come up with some kind of test. Passing that test will be needed to become what ever the test stands for. A licensed or certified professional.

Nothing, no test and certainly no organisation in the world can prevent that people that have passed the test previously will live up to what the test stands for. If you think you make more money slapping shoes on straight from the box (and you even might!) no test is going to stop you from that. So the AFA would need auditors, inspectors that run around the country (and me apparently being a member travel to Europe too :D ) and check on members and the quality of their work. Not practical......

An other option is to have all members do courses regularly if they do not want their membership to expire. But as soon as you step in that trap, you will find that the same applies to licensing tests and these courses. Completing them does not guarantee good work.

So what I would look into real close as I have with our organisation years ago, is an acceptance policy. Who can enter and do the test? Referrals from members would be needed. Or a system put into place where you can only enter when riding with a member for a year of 5 years or whatever.

Next AFA would need to see that there is no guarantee that members live up to their standards. So there should be a possibility to scratch members (after a fair hearing and all that!) from their membership list. Malpractice within the standards accepted by AFA and its members.

Further you want to educate your members and keep them educated. For this you would need educational programs members can enter. Like a laminitis course, or a reining horse shoeing course. These courses allow the participant to call himself AFA member, specialized in whatever the courses he followed.

Unlike the overall AFA membership the specialist credentials would force the member in question to do a test every 2 years or 5 years or whatever, for him or her to keep on being accepted as a specialist within the AFA.

Some shoers will not see the need for further education. Fine no problem if they do fine without any extra courses, why would that be an issue? The only thing a organisation can do is offer the possibility to enter educational programs of what ever kind.

Now if you really want to do things right, AFA also needs a "complaint department". Where horse owners can go to and have certain problems addressed. The people doing this for AFA would need to be generally accepted shoers. Usually the same group that also provides the specialist courses within such organisations.

You could demand people pay a small fee for such complaints to be looked into, and/or that complaints will have to be accompanied by a letter from a vet and/or that complaints can only be accepted when properly do***ented with pictures and such. That way you can sort out the kind of complaints that tell you more about the guy complaining than the shoer and his work.

The big advantage of having your own desk horse owners can go to is that you have your own experts looking into the problem rather than some guy that get paid big bucks to tell their story in a court room. Even if that would happen, the member can count on the AFA to provide a neutral and honest and well do***ented account of their findings. You can back up your members all the way, that is until you find they don't deserve that.

The above goes for the organisation and its members, but organisations like the AFA have another task too, and that one is with the horse owning public. Although I don't know for sure my impression is there is not much energy and certainly no money spend on marketing the AFA product. At least, whatever it is, it's not enough :cool:

Guys you need to be out there if you want to spread the word! Adds is papers, horse magazines, booths on horse shows on how the AFA educates its members, offers courses, stimulates education to its members. How AFA can be addressed when there are problems between a member and a customer.

That's the only way you can make an organisation grow. You can not make it grow by discussing if members should eat with their mouths closed and if so how to keep them eating with their mouths closed.


Ronald Aalders
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 09:06 #19

  • tbloomer
  • tbloomer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 4622
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 1
Rick Burten wrote:
I suppose this comes down to a "quality of education" discussion and its one that the schools seem to have little interest in discussing/debating.
In college some of my classes were graded on a curve and some were not. :)
Philosophically, I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not so sure I am in full agreement. Besides, I thought/think(exceptions noted) the shape of the shoe should mirror the shape of the inside edge of the White Line not what the perimeter of the hoof looks like, regardless of how well dressed it may be.
Usually when making a perimeter fit I dress the wall to follow the contour of the inner edge of the white line, then shape my shoe to follow the contour of the wall. :) On rare occasions I have punched finer or coarser nail holes in a keg shoe using this method.
(deletia) And after they have done that for a few years, its a habit and one they find very hard to break. And that shows up when they decide to stand for certification.
IMO one should seek certification as soon as they begin working in the trade.

I think the one year experience guideline for the CF ought to be removed. Some folks can pass it with less experience or even right out of school. Since it is not a field exam, I don't see a reason to make a candidate wait for a year before taking the test. Better to get the basic skill development done at the beginning before one develops "habits."
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 09:36 #20

  • tbloomer
  • tbloomer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 4622
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 1
I think that a farrier association what offers certification should answer complaints from horse owners by sending out a representative to help the farrier and owner work out their differences.

Instead of a disciplinary action it ought to be handled as an educational intervention. This way nobody looses, especially the horse. :)
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 11:12 #21

  • Mike Ferrara
  • Mike Ferrara's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5057
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 0
Rick Burten wrote:
Were the AFA to open a school and then test its graduates, it would be no different than one of the other National Farrier organizations. It would loose credibility and autonomy. IOW, the fox would be guarding the henhouse.

Under the current system, both the AFA and the GPF(and for that matter, the NB group) are independent testing organizations and they must remain as such.

If any of these organizations were to become affiliated with a formal schooling program, it would, to me, be much akin to the adage: "When you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas".

Every university that I know of also tests and issues degrees. Those degrees have credibility...though some are more highly valued than others.

There are, no doubt, a lot of reasons for that but one reason is the quality of the graduates. What one is really interested in is their performance on the job.

Sure a school can hand out certifications or degrees to all their students whether they have earned them or not but that's when they lose credibility because their graduates can't perform in the field. A school can teach and maintain the standards of their testing. They will have credibility as long as they do AND their graduates can perform.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 11:13 #22

Hey Amanda, remember you have learned all this info right here on horseshoes.com, not the AFA site! When they want to be the "Leader" in the Farrier Community, I would figure that more folks would tune in to that site than this one? So really ," Where are you getting more info from?" All I am saying is give credit where credit is due?

I catch where your coming from. And I'm happy to have access to all these brains to pick!
The association that stays in the forefront and attracts farriers that willingly pursue education & certification will end up as the industry standard measure.
Amanda Gibson, CF
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 11:32 #23

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
Mike Ferrara wrote:
Every university that I know of also tests and issues degrees. Those degrees have credibility...though some are more highly valued than others.
True, but when said graduate goes for his/her credential (MD, DVM, CPA, CIA, FBI, whatever :) ) that testing is done by an independent agency/oprganization. You can graduate from Harvard Law School or John Hopkins Medical, but that degree ain't worth squat if you can't pass your State boards.

My daughter can graduate first in her class, but she still needs to take the ACT's and/or the SAT's and do well on them to get into the University of her choice.

The common denominator here being testing by an autonomous agency.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 12:13 #24

  • Mike Ferrara
  • Mike Ferrara's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5057
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 0
Rick Burten wrote:
True, but when said graduate goes for his/her credential (MD, DVM, CPA, CIA, FBI, whatever :) ) that testing is done by an independent agency/oprganization. You can graduate from Harvard Law School or John Hopkins Medical, but that degree ain't worth squat if you can't pass your State boards.

My daughter can graduate first in her class, but she still needs to take the ACT's and/or the SAT's and do well on them to get into the University of her choice.

The common denominator here being testing by an autonomous agency.

All true enough for the examples you gave but there are lots of examples of professions where you get your degree and go to work with no other licensing or certification.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 13:03 #25

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
Mike Ferrara wrote:
All true enough for the examples you gave but there are lots of examples of professions where you get your degree and go to work with no other licensing or certification.
Which proves what? Is a Journalism degree from Ratcliff any more indicative of the ability of the posessor than one from Slippery Rock State? How about those Journalists who never got a degree? How about all those actors and actress' that graduated with a degree in Theater but are spending most of their waking hours waiting tables at the local choke 'n puke?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 04 May 2007 15:03 #26

  • Mike Ferrara
  • Mike Ferrara's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5057
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 0
Rick Burten wrote:
Which proves what? Is a Journalism degree from Ratcliff any more indicative of the ability of the posessor than one from Slippery Rock State? How about those Journalists who never got a degree? How about all those actors and actress' that graduated with a degree in Theater but are spending most of their waking hours waiting tables at the local choke 'n puke?

You got me with those question. I have no experience in film, theater or jouralism.

I'll tell you this though, if you have a technical degree from MIT, you'll have no trouble getting a great job without having to test for an independant certification.

There are professions and instances where you my need to and many where you don't. As an engineer, I never had to take any tests other than those I took in school in order to enter the workplace. The point is that the degree carries weight on it's own even though the educator is also the tester.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 05 May 2007 08:56 #27

  • ThomasRideandDrive
  • ThomasRideandDrive's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Equestrian Centre Proprietor, Northumberland, UK
  • Posts: 2514
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 1
Mike Ferrara wrote:
As an engineer, I never had to take any tests other than those I took in school in order to enter the workplace. The point is that the degree carries weight on it's own even though the educator is also the tester.
If you were in the UK you wouldn't be able to do that. My first degree is in Electrical, Electronic and Mechanical Engineering and throughout my career in engineering I've had to upgrade my qualifications and particularly with regard to new regulations and relating to safety and new practices etc. Likewise here the standard of training provided by the Universities is audited as is the examination results and by the Institute of Electrical (or Mechanical) Engineers.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 05 May 2007 11:10 #28

  • tbloomer
  • tbloomer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 4622
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 1
Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
If you were in the UK you wouldn't be able to do that. My first degree is in Electrical, Electronic and Mechanical Engineering and throughout my career in engineering I've had to upgrade my qualifications and particularly with regard to new regulations and relating to safety and new practices etc. Likewise here the standard of training provided by the Universities is audited as is the examination results and by the Institute of Electrical (or Mechanical) Engineers.
If I wanted to go back to being a network engineer I would have to retest for my certifications. Getting a job in that field requires multiple certifications and all of them expire every few years. You have to keep current with changes in technology. If your certifications aren't current, you might not loose your job, but you won't get raises and promotions either.

The thing that prevents farrier certification from being expanded beyond the basic skills and knowledge is standards for shoeing applications beyond the basics. It's hard to develop a set of standards for every shoeing situation. Just like its hard to qualtify experience.

For example, Imagine what it would take to develop a written protocol for applying a heart bar shoe and then administering a test (practical application or written) on that protocol. There are several situations where this shoe can really help a horse, but the application of the shoe (amount of frog pressure) is different for each.

I don't know for shure if a heart bar shoe is going to do what I think it is supposed to do until I nail it on a horse. Maybe in another 10 years I will be able to make a more accurate prediction of the outcome. But that still doesn't mean that I will be able to create a protocol (for the heart bar shoe) that can be taught to a beginner.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 05 May 2007 11:44 #29

  • tbloomer
  • tbloomer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 4622
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 1
Mike Ferrara wrote:
I'll tell you this though, if you have a technical degree from MIT, you'll have no trouble getting a great job without having to test for an independant certification.
Thing is, it will be an entry level job. Nobody with any sense would hire an MIT grad to be a project manager straight out of school. I don't think Wharton Business school grads are hired as CEOs right out of school either. Also these schools have very high entrance requirements. I think the entrance requirements for most farrier schools is probably determined by whether or not your tuition check bounces.

Some of the farrier schools advertise that they will train you to be a fully qualified professional upon graduation. Therefore, according to these schools, every student that graduates with a passing score IS a fully qualified professional.

Some farrier schools advertise that they will train you to be qualified as an entry level professional prepared to serve an internship. I think this is a more realistic and honest aproach.

However, a horse owner won't know the difference between an entry level farrier and a master farrier until they learn what to look for and what questions to ask. Therefore, asking if a farrier is AFA certified or Guild registered BEFORE booking an appointment could go a long way toward eliminating the perception that graduation from a well known (as in well advertised) school is the pinnacle of professional qualification.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Certification - By Whom 05 May 2007 17:01 #30

  • Jack Evers
  • Jack Evers's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3399
  • Thank you received: 45
  • Karma: 9
I have a PhD in engineering and even that only allows me to do engineering work if supervised by a professionally registered engineer. To work on my own or be in charge of a project, I had to be tested for professional registration and must upgrade with a certain number of CEU's (continueing education units) every few years. Few horseshoers work under anyone's supervision except for some vet-farrier situations and few or none are subject to continuing education requirements.

Certification does not have the power of a state law and/or state board that oversees a registration proceedure that could keep someone from working, but we are one of the few professions that deal with living subjects that are not so regulated. Hopefully that will not happen soon, but if it does, one or a combination of the certification models (AFA, Guild, NB, BWFA) will form the basis of the law and hopefully it will be a good model

I rarely add the letters, but here they are in case they are necessary for my right to work.

Jack CJF, PhD, PE
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Kunena Birthday Module

  • Mike Chaffin birthday is today
  • shelby820 birthday is today
  • hatcher barry birthday is in 1 day
  • cowgirlup birthday is in 363 days
  • gabear67E2 birthday is in 363 days
  • AClement birthday is in 364 days
  • andreanelson birthday is in 364 days
  • dani_shoes78 birthday is in 364 days
  • Docbarhorse birthday is in 364 days
  • SherryinPA birthday is in 364 days
  • WeercerigD10C birthday is in 364 days
Time to create page: 0.222 seconds

S5 Box

Register

*
*
*
*
*
*

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.