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TOPIC: Certification - By Whom

Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 14:00 #1

So let me toss out some food for thought. We all have our own allegences and preferences, but if "certification" would make such a difference for the recognition of farriers as trained professionals in their field, and since there is minimal knowledge of any certification out there among horse owners would we not be further ahead by simply promoting the concept of using a certified farrier whether they are AFA, BWFA or Guild, rather than standing in front of the world saying our system is better than their system and looking like a bunch of childeren in the playground trying to determine who will be king of the castle?
Sure, the king of the castle battle will no doubt be going on behind the curtain, but would not the joint effort of simply promoting a certified farrier by all the groups put professional face on the trade?
Lawrence Nault
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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 14:16 #2

  • Rick Burten
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I think that promoting the AFA and the GPF certifications is a great thing. Promoting the BWFA certifications is, IMNTBCHO, disingenuous to the horseowning public. That certification process enjoys a less than stellar reputation, so I would not be willing to endorse it or even use it in the same breath as the other two.

As has been elsewhere pointed out, like it or not, the NB certifications are eclipsing all the others in name recognition and demand by the horseowning public. Regardless of the motive(s) behind the marketing, it is demonstrable that the marketing and subsequent demand are present and growing. I think that in time, the number of NB certified farriers will equal or exceed the number of AFA certified farriers, and that many AFA certified farriers will also become NB certified. I certainly hope that with the addition of Tom Stovall to the mix, the AFA will be able to properly identify and reach the right group of people with its message regarding AFA certification.

One question that has yet to be adequately addressed is how to maintain the high level of competency demonstrated by someone when they first attain their credential.

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 14:55 #3

Rick Burten wrote:
One question that has yet to be adequately addressed is how to maintain the high level of competency demonstrated by someone when they first attain their credential.

Rick
It seems no one really wants to consider that point. I did bring it up in the thread on why is AFA membership so low but it seemed to be brushed over completely. I do think that promoting certification across the board would be beneficial to all and once horse owners get the concept embedded in the decision process than the best system of certification will stand out and the others will either meet the challenge or fall by the wayside.
The question must be asked though, of any certification system, "How are you going to enforce the ongoing standards once certified?" If consumers complain to the certifying body is there going to be a process to retract that certification? If there are consumer complaints filed with the certifying body is that body going to make that information available to the public. Or is the certification body going to be like the medical associations and protect the farriers under them - at which point the certification becomes of little more value than a membership in an organization.
Lawrence Nault
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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 15:02 #4

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SteppinOnTheFrog wrote:
The question must be asked though, of any certification system, "How are you going to enforce the ongoing standards once certified?".
Perhaps via a formal complaints procedure which filters through to a panel of people who are competent to review cases and hear evidence and take disciplinary action and retract certification if appropriate. That panel to be made up largely of peer group and initially to review the nature of the complaint.
If consumers complain to the certifying body is there going to be a process to retract that certification?
Seems pointless having a certification procedure if that doesn't happen. Though this would be practically done after a complaint.
If there are consumer complaints filed with the certifying body is that body going to make that information available to the public.
I'd suggest that would be best practice and it what happens with other registered and certified professionals such as doctors, vets, lawyers and in the UK with farriers too.
Or is the certification body going to be like the medical associations and protect the farriers under them
Is that what happens in the USA? I thought discplinary matters were of public interest there as here. Here findings are always published. And if a doctor is "struck off" - or a farrier come to that, then that is a matter of public interest and as such the information is readily available.
- at which point the certification becomes of little more value than a membership in an organization
You're right there. Absolutely no point having a toothless dog.
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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 16:11 #5

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Certification surely opens a can of worms. I think you forgot to include Natural Balance certification as well as Strasser Certification (I am in no way comparing the two, but they are out there). It would seem difficult for the horse owning public to decide which certification is worth respecting.
It makes much more sense to me to start by limiting the conversation (and practise) to those completing a set amount of education dedicated to farriery (six months or a year, for starters).
Licensing "yes", certification "no".
P
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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 16:35 #6

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reillyshoe wrote:
I think you forgot to include Natural Balance certification.
I did address that certification, if only briefly, in my reply, above.
It would seem difficult for the horse owning public to decide which certification is worth respecting.
Yes, that is and will remain problematic. However, as noted, the NB certification is market/demand driven. Much like what we hope to accomplish with the AFA certifications.

Until/unless a major governmental entity takes up the licensing issue, I don't think you will see that become a reality. Certification on the other hand can be market/demand driven and needs only an aware and vocal public to see it to fruition.

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 22:15 #7

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Ok let me throw this into the fire. I have a client that has a couple of Morgan horses that she doesn't even ride,and she was on the crisp of loseing her full time job ,soshe went and studied Equine Massage and got herself "Certifitied" to do massages on horses. Well because of her financial problems I told her I would "trade" out trims for a massage for my wifes barrel horse. Shes charges about $65 an hour and I charge her $30 a head because I have trimmed for her for so many years I can't remember? Anyway she comes out to the barrel races and does her "fine finger thing" on my wifes horse of choicethat day and we are all OK. Does it help my wifes horse run better? Who knows? On any day any horse can out run another? I quized her one time on how she does her massages and she said that IF she did anything differant the lady that "certifitied" her could pull her certification? I have never asked her to see her "papers" and to put that to everyday life shoeing horses, NO one in 29 years has ever asked me if I was certifited? So my question is how would this lady know the other lady screwed the pooch and needed to "PULL" her certification? Same story on the AFA? Who can pull certifications?
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 23:46 #8

Read what Natural Balance says about their certification on there website. Natural Balance folks struggled for many years figureing out how they would go about certification. If I recall NB cert. came about from demand. If a NB cert. farrier demonstrated poor work and unprofessionalism I am sure the name would be removed from the preffered list that is available to horse owners.

Problem with AFA Cert. is the lack of education. AFA cert does not prove anything. Shoeing the horse properly is not required all that is required is following instructions. The scoreing system alone can get a horse in trouble. Take for example a thin walled TB with a dish in the toe and a farrier trying to get high scores in all catagorys. Trying to dress that toe so the horn tubules are straight inorder to get a high score. It is one thing to say reshoe the horses that are done for cert., but you cannot put back what you take off. Heck this isnt the Farriers fault, the test demands it with no consideration of what is best for the horse. The AFA should only use horses with thick walls. This was not the case at my cert. I got a thin walled TB, toe was dished. I intentionaly left it and explained my reason for leaveing the wall alone. Still this dinged my points and a CJF went ahead and dressed the wall off anyways. My heart sank at that moment. I could tell whoever was shoeing this horse was doing a nice job keeping this horses feet in good shape and the last thing it needed was to have that dorsal wall removed just to make it look straight. NB teaches another way to obtain a shorter toe by beveling from underneath. Pretty simple concept but it seems like some farriers just can't crasp that idea. I could go on forever. What's the use.

This is why I have a problem with the test. Sure it tests basic knowledge bla bla bla. If this is the case then the AFA needs to make darn sure they tell young farriers going for cert. That this is not the right way to trim and shoe it is just meant for testing. Go learn the right way to trim and shoe after your certified. Another thing the AFA needs to do is remove the example of proper shoeing they have on the website. Those examples are what is used for testing. Which is just meant to be a standard to test basic skills.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Certification - By Whom 02 May 2007 23:57 #9

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Back in my IT days the big certification to have was Novell Netware. When Microsoft started offering their certification it was considered a joke becaus eit was so easy to pass their tests compared to the Novell tests. Eventually Novell ******ed their test down and Microsoft made theirs more difficult. In spite of the technical superiority of Novell Netware over Microsoft NT server, the marketing power of Microsoft overwhealmed Novell.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Certification - By Whom 03 May 2007 00:35 #10

tbloomer wrote:
Back in my IT days the big certification to have was Novell Netware. When Microsoft started offering their certification it was considered a joke becaus eit was so easy to pass their tests compared to the Novell tests. Eventually Novell ******ed their test down and Microsoft made theirs more difficult. In spite of the technical superiority of Novell Netware over Microsoft NT server, the marketing power of Microsoft overwhealmed Novell.

I know some who consider the Guild a ******ed down test compared to the AFA test. I am not talking about ******ing a test down, my point is education. Day to day stuff, helping horses stay as sound as they can competeing or not. We need to be carefull of what we wish for. All this time farriers stress owner education. Well the day has come where owners are getting educated and can see what works and what does not work. Had a brief discussion with Dick on Sunday. Enjoyed the conversation and found him to be a reall good person. He knows what works and what will get him fired.

All the AFA needs to do is adopt a better education program that fits day to day needs and this will truely meet the mission statement.

I mentioned to Dick that I think the problem with the AFA membership stems more from how we trim and shoe horses not politics. I can give a hoot about politics and financial reports. Educateing farriers on how to do a proper trim, balance and shoeing job. This is what we do and depend on to make a liveing. Sometimes I wonder if successfull farrier would preffer keeping balance a secret. Keep teaching a farrier to over trim the sole, over dress the horn and parimeter fit and the rest can make a liveing fixing problems and looking like heros.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Certification - By Whom 03 May 2007 11:20 #11

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Phil Armitage]I know some who consider the Guild a ******ed down test compared to the AFA test. I am not talking about ******ing a test down, my point is education.[/QUOTE]When you pass one of those tests maybe you can share your own opinion instead of someone elses. :p

Using the term "******ed down" implies that at some time in the past the test was different or that it is an easier version of an existing test. Sort of like saying an apple is a ******ed down version of an orange. wrote:
Day to day stuff, helping horses stay as sound as they can competeing or not.
The AFA certification tests have nothing to do with helping horses stay sound, nor is there a way to test that ability on one horse with a single test.

OTOH, considering the high failure rate, it appears that most of the folks taking it, for whatever reason, either don't understand the criteria or lack the skill to meet the criteria. Figuring out the criteria and learing to apply it is, IMHO, a tremendous educational process. The inferance is that somewhere along the way, one ought to be able to use the BASIC knowledge and skill gained in the process to help horses stay sound.
We need to be carefull of what we wish for. All this time farriers stress owner education. Well the day has come where owners are getting educated and can see what works and what does not work.
Besides educating horse owners that they have a CHOICE to use a certified farrier, it would benefit the industry for them to be educated about what farriers look for in a good customer. I've dumped more than my share of customers what had nice horses and nice facilities, but the owner thought that it was ok to jack my schedule around. For every horse owner that complains about farriers not keeping appointments, I can introduce you to a horse owner about whom farriers have the same complaint.

There's a whole bunch of nice horses in nice barns what can't keep a decent farrier because they treat hoof care as an afterthought. I really don't give a hoot about these people, but it's a darned shame that their horses have to suffer because of them. Maybe if the AFA could educate these folks about the "no foot no horse" thing, some of them would begin to believe it.

Educating horse owners about the importance of regular hoof care is not the same as educating horse owners about farriery. I met a guy yesterday at the bank who told me he just bought his kid a pony. He asked me if he needed to have his "feet cut" more than twice a year, because the person he got the pony from said that was how often they did it. My answer was that, in my professional opinion, anything more than 6 weeks in summer and 8 weeks in winter was a clear case of negligence. He thought that it was only necessary to trim the feet if you were planning to take the pony to a show. Fact is there are a lot of horse owners what have owned horses for their entire lives that feel the same way. WHO is supposed to educate the people about lameness prevention through regular hoof care? Their numbers are growing every day.
All the AFA needs to do is adopt a better education program that fits day to day needs and this will truely meet the mission statement.
Last I heard the AFA had a testing program what measures a farriers knowledge and ability to perform tasks related to the day to day farriery needs of horses. The education program seems to be something that is left up to the individual to figure out for themselves. Then when you think you've got it figured out you can take their test to see where you stand.

Are you suggesting that the AFA should open a school? There are plenty of schools that teach the basics covered on the AFA certification exams. Sort of bugs me that some folks blame the schools for their student's performance. Far as I know, just about every farrier school covers the basics what are tested in the AFA CF exam. Once the AFA gets its certification promotion up and running, it will be interesting to see if future farriers start looking for schools what have certified farriers as instructors. At least then they would know that their teachers had passed a basic test.
Keep teaching a farrier to over trim the sole, over dress the horn and parimeter fit and the rest can make a liveing fixing problems and looking like heros.
You are implying that some organization teaches these things. I am not aware of any organization that teaches this stuff. Where did you learn it? Obviously you think it is wrong and that you have learned alternative methods. Therefore I can assume that you think you were originally taught wrong. Did the AFA teach you that? Are you assuming that because you see some farriers doing the job this way that they were taught to do it that way by some educational organization? What organization or school teaches farriers to over trim sole and over dress horn? What organization or school teaches farriers to perimeter fit every horse?

Ya know it takes a lot more skill to perimeter fit a shoe to a well dressed hoof than it does to broaden the toe and set a shoe under on a distorted hoof. If it weren't so, a lot more folks would pass the AFA practical on the first shot. The ticking clock got me twice. But learning to fit shoes like that sure made it a lot easier for me to fit shoes according to what I think a horse needs. Far as I know, the AFA never gave me their opinion about how I should be shoeing horses day to day. :)
Tom Bloomer
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RE:Certification - By Whom 03 May 2007 12:42 #12

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tbloomer wrote:
Are you suggesting that the AFA should open a school?
Were the AFA to open a school and then test its graduates, it would be no different than one of the other National Farrier organizations. It would loose credibility and autonomy. IOW, the fox would be guarding the henhouse.

Under the current system, both the AFA and the GPF(and for that matter, the NB group) are independent testing organizations and they must remain as such.

If any of these organizations were to become affiliated with a formal schooling program, it would, to me, be much akin to the adage: "When you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas".
There are plenty of schools that teach the basics covered on the AFA certification exams. Sort of bugs me that some folks blame the schools for their student's performance.
Why? At least in the beginning, is it not true that the student is a reflection of the school and its ability to teach him/her the basics and how to apply them properly? If a student stands for the AFA CF exam one year after graduation and is unsuccessful who is responsible(in the broad sense) for this? The student who is practicing what he/she learned? The school who awarded a certificate/diploma? Both? neither? With that said, I concur that if a farrier has been working in the profession for several(or more) years and is unsuccessful, then the responsibility for that probably attaches solely to the candidate.
Far as I know, just about every farrier school covers the basics what are tested in the AFA CF exam.
I suppose this comes down to a "quality of education" discussion and its one that the schools seem to have little interest in discussing/debating.
Once the AFA gets its certification promotion up and running, it will be interesting to see if future farriers start looking for schools what have certified farriers as instructors. At least then they would know that their teachers had passed a basic test.
It will only be important if there is a perceived need/demand for such instructors.
Ya know it takes a lot more skill to perimeter fit a shoe to a well dressed hoof than it does to broaden the toe and set a shoe under on a distorted hoof.
Philosophically, I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not so sure I am in full agreement. Besides, I thought/think(exceptions noted) the shape of the shoe should mirror the shape of the inside edge of the White Line not what the perimeter of the hoof looks like, regardless of how well dressed it may be.
If it weren't so, a lot more folks would pass the AFA practical on the first shot........ But learning to fit shoes like that sure made it a lot easier for me to fit shoes according to what I think a horse needs. Far as I know, the AFA never gave me their opinion about how I should be shoeing horses day to day. :)
Yes, I fully agree with this. I do want to add this observation. Back in the early days of my career, most everything was perimeter fit, especially in the front. So, farriers of that time learned how to correctly fit a perimeter fit shoe. And, we did not have the plethora of multi-shapes shoes to choose from. We learned how to fit up a shoe correctly. A skill that I see increasingly lost among farriers who can purchase those pre-fitted/shaped shoes and with a knock of the hammer here and a knock of the hammer there, get the shoe "close enough" to nail on. And after they have done that for a few years, its a habit and one they find very hard to break. And that shows up when they decide to stand for certification.

Rick
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."


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RE:Certification - By Whom 03 May 2007 14:04 #13

I have to throw my two cents in here. I am not certified and have spent the past year and a half working on education and getting my business off the ground. I've never had a new client ask me if I'm certified. Friends and aquaintances have asked though.

A little history . . . My husband shoes part time, for 20 years. I met him and started apprenticing a few years ago, pulling, cleaning shoe, helping out with glue ons, etc. Fall 2005 I attended a pre-cert clinic at Mint Vale Forge. We did alot of forge work and put two shoes on cadaver legs. At the end of the week I took the Certified test, written & Practical. I passed the written at the Intern level (missed cert by two questions, grrrr). I ran over the time limit on the practical but was passed at the Intern level. BEFORE I WENT TO MINT VALE I HAD NEVER TRIMMED A FOOT, SHAPED A SHOE, OR NAILED ONE ON. Eight other people were testing that day at various levels and no one else passed anything. I was the only woman there and boy did I have an audience when I was bent over under that pony.

After that, I picked up the intensity of my apprenticeship, spent last winter at Danny Ward's and have spent the last year doing all the big horses and backyard accounts no one else wants (Keep turning them away guys, some of these folks and horses are really nice to deal with!)

I realize the Intern Certification doesn't give me anything. And in my case it really shouldn't. The experience did leave me wondering if passing parts of the test other than written is anything other than a handout from the good-ole-boys-club. Nevertheless, I will continue to work on my skills and when I feel I've reached an aptitude that would truly deserve a passing score, I'll go take the test (gotta work on that board, man things turn out ugly some days). It's not for the industry or to satisfy any clients, it's a low rung in my own little professional ladder that I'd like to pass.

I guess that was more than $.02, but I'm a new part-time shoer, I like to give my services away for next to nothing :D
Amanda Gibson, CF
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RE:Certification - By Whom 03 May 2007 16:38 #14

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Amanda,

One thing you need to know. There is no longer an Intern Classification. That level has been re-designated as "AFA Farrier" and you can honestly and legally refer to yourself as such so long as you have passed all portions of the testing program at that level.

As to whether or not this is a good thing, that is a discussion for another day.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Certification - By Whom 03 May 2007 22:54 #15

Tom and Rick, I find it easier to parimeter fit useing standard keg shoe (compromised pattern) instead of a front or hind pattern. It is even easier to use St. Criox rim shoes when takeing the CF. I preffer a wide web front pattern shoe like SX-8 or SSP for my everyday work. Also like to use St. Criox eventers.
Phil Armitage, CF
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