Ron,

I entered this thread to dispell the rumors that the members of the AFA were leaving in droves. This, as you can see, is not the case.

Ron,

This is the second time that I know of that you have threaten to sue the AFA or an officer. This does not sit well with me. If you think that you have a case to make with the AFA or any officer, go for it.

Ron, your manners suck. I will answer your questions to the best of my ability, but I will not be interogated. Were you a lawyer in another life?

The EC and the BoD are working hard to improve the image of the AFA and you keep bring it down. Try being positive.

Gary Miller,

You told me that you wanted to work for the good of the AFA and wanted a job to do. I belived you and had you appointed to the Finance Committee. Your job is to see to it that the assets of the association are safe, accounted for, and the financial future of the AFA is secure.

This does not give you the right to post our financial information for non-members to see. If you want this position to furnish your friends our financial information, please tell me now.

You are no friend of mind or any officer that I know. With that in mind, I thought you would make a great "gate keeper for the assets."

Gary, we will work well together if we understand where we stand on this.

Dick Fanguy wrote:
In defense of Gary, I have to ask where did he post financial information for all to see?

Your remark that you will work well with Gary as long as he understands where you stand sounds like a threat to me.

I went back and read what I could find and the only thing I can find is Gary informing us of where he is at with his new posistion, no financial information. He did state he would like to see information posted for members on the AFA website. What is wrong with that?

Geesh Dick your over reacting and acting pretty defensive to go as far as to say Gary is doing something wrong to harm the AFA and that he is no friend of yours. What is your problem?

Dick Fanguy wrote: Dick,

The Treasurer's report, including the financials, once made available to the membership, becomes a matter of public record. Which means it will be available to members and non-members alike. Do you think that once the "facts' are known, they won't be discussed? And, I'm willing to bet that while some would like the discussion to remain in the AFA members only section of the AFA website, that that is not going to happen. Especially in light of the bogus, sweetness and light non-report that was published in the current issue of the newsletter. And, speaking only for myself, that report is an insult to my intelligence and reasoning ability.Well, I consider Gary a friend of mine, and I'm an AFA member(#3414). Am I not entitled to this information on a timely basis and in a forthright manner?I know that you really didn't mean this as an implied threat or the like, but it sure is coming across as "My way or the highway". Perhaps you should clarify your intent.

Rick

What's the AFA afraid of? Who care's if the info on the financial report get's to non members. It really won't mean anything to them, but may be a way to show them that the AFA has nothing to hide. Why is it every time some one says something about reporting info here the AFA officers get so defensive and want to shut them up? What happened to the openness, the communication, and the transparency discussed and promised during the campaign? So far all I see is a lot of back pedaling.

I'm glad to see that others feel the same way about the treasurers report in the no foot no horse that I did. I thought that was very poor and really weak. If there was nothing to report then nothing should have been put in, especially what was written. I understand John is trying to get things straightened out, if he needs help then some one should get him the help he needs (the CPA might be a good one). I also understand you guys are working hard at changing things, but why is Dick the only one commenting here and on the AFA site? Where is our benevolent leader? Haven't heard a word from him in ages. Where is Andrew, he seems to have disappeared to.

I hope having the EC meetings on the road and getting the chapters involved where all different areas of the country will see and meet the EC will have a good effect on things. I'm not sure if that will happen though, since right here on these boards we see threats, arguments of nosensical measure, and infighting over simple things like AFA membership and certification.

I paid my dues and reupped for another year to see if things change. This is the second year I've done and said this. The first year didn't produce much, I hope this year proves out a bit better. Maybe it will with the restructuring of the BOD and some reworking of things we have discussed here so much lately, but I'm not holding my breath, I don't look good blue in the face.

All of Gary M.'s talking has landed him a place on a committe and I congradgulate him for that and hope he get's the answers and things he wants. Now if the EC could find it's way to put Tom S. to work helping with the Certification committee it would be money ahead. He's here, he's a member of the AFA now,very vocal, and very ready to do his part. Some one better wake up and use this resource. I've heard to many time of people with specific skills volunteering and being turned down even though they and their skills were needed. Tom B. is a specific example with the web site. I don't know the reasons, but it all comes down to lack of vision, hard headedness, personal problems, and not wanting to change JMO. I hope htis changes. I hope all the changes we keep getting promised come to fruition. If they don't, the AFA is really going to be between a rock and a hard place. The membership will stay low and maybe even decline. Again, I hope the changes happen and we can move forward and stop having these discussions.

Well, Well, I have not even done anything and I'm already been shot, Gutted, Quarterd, and hang to cure. And by a member of the EC none the less. I expected as much after all I'm only a two year member.

Now lets get to the rat killing.
Dick Fanguy wrote: I volunteered to serve where ever possable because every time I turned around someone told me to make a diffrence and get involved. So I told you on the AFA web site when I renewed dues to but me to work. You sent me an email asking which committees I would be interested in. And I provided you a list.
I promise you that what ever I do will be what I feel is for the good of the organization.Dick Fanguy wrote: Let me remind you as VP you have no power to have me or anyone appointed to any committee. You can only recommend. The committee chair is the only one who can appoint. He is also the only one who can remove prior to the end of the two year appointment. I do thank you for the confidence and help in getting me appointed.Dick Fanguy wrote: No sir that is the treasurer's job.
As a member of the finance committee my job is. Working with the other committee members to but togeather a yearly budget, and submite it to the BOD for approval. Once approved the committee manages the income and expenses of the association within the guidlines of the approved budget throughout the year.
We manage by making sure the budget is followed to the letter as approved by the BOD. If the budget needs to be diveated from for what ever reason we make sure the deviation gets approved by the BOD first.Dick Fanguy wrote: Where have I posted any financial information at all, let alone to non AFA members?

Where have I said I would post financial information to non AFA members?Dick Fanguy wrote: I entend to see to it that the membership of the AFA is informed on the happenings of the Finance Committee, as well as providing them at least Quarterly with a budget report. Its their association and they have a right to know whats going on. I will do this by posting on the members only side of the AFA web site. Hopefully on a page provided for that purpose. If no page is available then it will be done on the members discussion board.
I know this concept is new to the AFA but I think the members want to be informed. Every committee should do the same.Dick Fanguy wrote: Don't you think I already knew that. After all I'm not a member of the good old boys net work. I'm fairly new to the farrier field. And as I was so greatfully reminded on another thread on this site by Mr. Andrews (PE), I'm only a two year member of the AFA. Beside that I'm very out spoken and call a spade a spade.
However, This is not about freindships it about doing what is best for the organization. If freindships are made along the way then that is an added benifit I will have the pleasure of dealing with.Dick Fanguy wrote: I think you will find I will be of great help in ensuring that the budget is built and managed within the guidelines of the BOD.
If you were looking for a flunky who would be a yes man. Then you have the wrong man.Dick Fanguy wrote: Well I hope you understand where I stand.

Now have a nice day.

Ronald E. Kramedjian in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

I hope you won't mind if I point out that your incessant and apparently groundless nitpicking appears to be a serious case of sour grápes caused by your loss in the recent election.

Actually I do mind.

Small wonder.

This is an allegation that I figured someone would through out the second I opened my mouth about anything of consequence.

You appear to be saying that it's okay for you to allege all manner of questionable activity as fact, but appear to find the shoe a bit binding when it's placed on the other foot.

I was a bit disappointed that Dick was the first to hint at it, but I am completely and totally ****** struck that you would use such a tactic.

Don't whine, it's unseemly. You lost. Get over it.

If you do not like my approach, you have a right to your opinion.

Hold that thought.

If you don't agree with me fine. If you think I’m full of merde, cool. But don't try this kind of garbage, because that is all it is **** filled garbage and you of all the people here are capable of so much more.

You know the thing about duck identification? When I see something that looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I tend to identify the fowl as a duck.

The facts haven't changed and no mater how much you, Danvers, Dick or anyone else try’s to obfuscate them they are still there for everyone to see.

Your conjecture and allegations are not "facts"; instead, they appear to be a rather pathetic attempt to disparage the folks who beat you at the polls. You lost. Get over it.

There are just over 3000 members. Just barely half of those members have achieved certification at some level.

So what? The newly elected officers are not responsible for the past, and I'm sure as hell not - but I'm going to do what I can to make the public aware of the benefits of AFA certification. And, you can take that to the bank.

Growth is currently stagnant or falling slightly. When contrasting our current growth rate with the membership number that increased by 1500 regular members over the 12 years preceding there appears to be a major decrease in momentum. All of this combined doesn't look like real health to me or to a whole lot of other people.

"...or to a whole lot of other people"? Who are these all these folks whom you would have this forum believe have elected you spokesman for their grievances? Last I heard, you lost the election.

Unfortunately it appears that instead of having a open honest conversation about the apparent problem there seems to be a lot of interest in attacking those that are raising the issue for discussion.

In debate, attempting to "raise and issue for discussion" by the use of logical fallacies, conjecture, allegations, and innuendo is not how one goes about raising an issue for discussion unless one's position is weak and one wishes to misdirect folks' attention from the salient to the irrelevant.

If that is the style of leadership you want Mr. Stovall cool, based upon your approach in this thread you are going to fit right in.

I can fit right in at the sleezyist juke joints, the smelliest fish camps, the poorest cow camps and damn near anyplace else I take a notion to light. I'll get along just fine as an AFA member simply because what you see is what you get. My agenda has been stated ad nauseam and it ain't exactly a secret.

Again, welcome to the AFA.

Thanks again.

calshoer wrote: Patty,
You can get all those things from the Union.
Look into it if youre interested.
George

Ok guys, looks like I ****ed off a lot of people. Good! Now that I have your attention, we need to change the image of the AFA from negative to positive. It has to be a group effort. Anyone can take something out of contex and give it a negative spin. I suppose the opposit is true also.

The only way we are going to set this ship right is for us to all be on the same page. We all have to be heading for the same goal. Does this mean that we all have to agree? No, but lets keep our disagreements in house and settle them without tarnishing the image of the association. Yes, I was hard on Gary Miller. You see, I don't think he has very good manners. I worked hard to get him appointed to a very important committee. Not because I like him or he was a member of the "good old boys club" as you"ll like to call it. I think Gary has a lot to offer the association. There is a distrust voiced here with the officers of the AFA. Who better to keep an eye on them than someone that dislikes us. As for seeing our financial records, pay your dues and you will get all the information you would like. As soon as we have the new web-sight up and running, it will be published on the members only section. Dave is working on a plan right now to have access to all of our records by any member.

I have been plesantly supprised by the number of members that are coming back to the AFA. Not only are they coming back, they are wanting to work to change the image of the AFA. Witness, Tom Stovall as a member of the publications committee and heading up the web sight do over.

If you want to know what is going on in the AFA, join up and be a part of the make over. We welcome you, one and all. As I promised, I will try to keep you informed on what is going on. Some of the information may be time sensitive and pending decisions that have to be made by the BoD. I will be as open as I can, but I cannot give out information that I cannot back up. I would think all could understant that.

Address any question you like to me and I will answer it for you. If I don't know the answer, I will try to get it for you. We have nothing to hide from our members.

Dick,
As a non-member is none of my concern but a good number of members would like to see a public ad campaign pushing the certification program.

Do you believe this to be something that's doable?
George

Ben,

You are so right. Tom Bloomer could be a great asset to the AFA, but he is not a member. I wish he was. He has turned his attention to the Guild. That was his decision to make and I wish him well. If he ever wants to come back he knows that he can. I, for one, would welcome him back.

Rick,

We have know each other for a long time and we both know that we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. But, when it come to the financial information of our association, I think it should be for the member only. If we had something to hide, do you think I would have worked to put a man on the committee that cannot stand me? Hog wash. Hell, if I walked on water, Gary would say I can't swim. There was no threat in my message. It was a statement of fact. I want to work with Gary as long as he has the best interest of the AFA and not some private agenda. We should give out all the reasons people should join the AFA. You do it all the time. There is no need to publish our budget to intise new members. Get them to join and it's all there.

George,

You are right on the money. We are putting together a unified marketing plan to present to the horse owning public promoting the Certified Farrier. As a matter of fact, Tom Stovall has agreed to write a article on the merrits of the certification program for the horse owner and the horse. This will be the first of many article we hope to publish. We cannot afford lots of ads, but we plan on getting a lot of editorial content out there. As I said, Tom Stovall's will be the first, but not the last.

We will need the new web sight to support these editorials. Good things are coming. Why don't you give us a try?

Dick,
Good, glad to hear it.

I was in for 10 years. I've seen enough. For the same reasons Tom Bloomer thought his efforts were better suited for the Guild, I too think my efforts at this time are better spent for the JHU. Wish you all the best though.

Hey guys one other thing. Did anyone ever look at it this way, Approximately 40,000 horseshoers but barely 3000 members? Perhaps one could conclude that the huge majority is opposed to the AFA?
George