Gary_Miller wrote:
Now all we need is Tom Paris to jump on board and conduct the AFA Finance Committee's meetings right here.... The esteemed gentleman from the great state of Idaho would like to yield three minutes of his remaining time to the Senator from Tennessee, who has extremely relevant information on this matter of national security.... www.horseshoes.cspan.afa.gov/ohmygod

reillyshoe wrote:
Pat,

My point was simply that you're comparing apples and walnuts rather than apples and apples, or even apples and oranges.

The NEA is an association for all involved in education of any kind at any level. It would be equivalent to an association that included all in the equine industry: trainers, vets, farriers, dentists, concerned owners, etc., etc.

The NCTE is an association for all involved in teaching English. It would be equivalent to special interest associations that would be sub-groups of the larger society/association. It would be equivalent to such groups as the AFA, the AAEP, and so forth.

Mentioning the AAEP makes me want to further my discussion about ratios of practitioners to members in a practitioner association....

The AFA speaks of having 3,000+ members in more than 20 countries, and people poo-poo that as being fewer than 10% of the practitioners.

The AAEP speaks of having 8,000+ members in more than 50 countries, yet no one seems to ask if those 8,000 vets represent a majority or a minority of the folks practicing medicine on horses. Do you think that number represents anywhere close to a majority of the veterinarians who are actually working on horses in their practices?

In my neck of the woods, we have a good number of large animal practitioners and "cattle jockeys" who work on horses routinely. They're not flocking to join the AAEP.

danverschild wrote: Hey Danvers lets not forget who give out the misleading information, John. But your right it should be discussed else where as a committee.

Gary_Miller wrote:
Gary, slipping in an insult on a public forum for the whole world to see is also a private matter. If we want to improve the AFA's image then lets start doing it. "Praise in public criticise in private".

I see you were very buisy on the AFA forum and dissatisfied with the lack of communications. May I suggest shortening the posts, bullets work good. Many of the post, not just yours are too lengthy. I had to skim through and afterawhile logged off and overall saw it as a mess.

reillyshoe wrote: No it doesn't change anything because, according to what was posted, nobody followed through on the promotion. Just because Danvers wrote 20 articles promoting AFA certification does not mean that they were published over and over again - or that they were published at all. Methinks you've jumped to a conclusion based on a false assumption.

For any advertising campaign to be effective in a mass market, it has to be run in multiple places and presented in several different ways. You don't achieve ubiquity in a market without being ubiquitous. You can't maintain it without maintainance.

For example, open any farrier magazine for the past decade and you will see an advertisement for Mustad or St. Croix. It is almost impossible to not know about these companies if you are a farrier.

Since the market is horse owners, and not all horse owners subscribe to the same horse publications, reaching the audiance is going to take a continuous advertising campaign that runs in perpetuity.

But there's more to it than that. If an advertisement brings a horse owner to the AFA web site, there needs to be something waiting for them to attract and keep their attention. In addition, the AFA needs to be able to respond with a referral to a certified farrier, and a certified farrier, what has no room for a new clients, needs to be able to respond with a price increase.

Natural Balance has managed to generate a huge demand with just their web site. But it took a decade for them to get to where they are. Like it or not, there are probably more vets what have heard of Natural Balance then there are vets what know about the AFA. Probably the same for horse owners, because if you're frustrated with your farrier's competence and looking for something better on the Internet, you're going to FIND the Natural Balance web site and furums a lot faster, and get a whole lot more information, then you will from the AFA.

Within the AFA there are quite a few farriers who have attempted to discredit Natural Balance. Now the Natural Balance certification has more demand than an AFA certification. If you want to see an example of web marketing creating demand, you need look no further than this example. The demand for Natural Balance farriers resulted in the Natural Balance certification program. Imagine how much MORE demand there would be if NB was advertised in horse owner publications.

Gary,
Thank you for your input. I think you should re-read my post.
John Blombach, Treasurer

Gary,

Take your own advice and move this over to the members only section of the AFA web sight. How can you be effective on a committee if you get eveyone mad at you before you start.

You are one member of the committee and not the whole committee. You have the right to your thoughts just as John has the rights to his. Discuss them in the proper place.

If you are using Ron as a role model, take a look at where it got him. I have no problem with Ron's ideas and suggestions, it's his delivery that gets him in trouble. Take a deep breath and punt the ball.

We need a real budget that we can work with. As a member of the finance committe, it is your job to help us dedicate the funds we need to get our work done.

My old in grey, Tom S. in red and my reply in black

I think a good portion of the horse owning public knows about AFA certification.

You might want to re-think your stance. By and large, the public is blissfully ignorant of the AFA's existence, much less AFA certification. If you have any doubts, just ask around.

I wonder if anyone has actually done a survey? I guess I have asked around. Most of the horse owners that I have talked to not only know of the AFA certification and many have used AFA certified farriers at some point.

They see the AFA booth at fairs, shows ect. We're not really just talking about informing people of the existance of AFA certification are we?

We ain't talking existence, we're talking benefits.

Most assuredly so! The public has a much better chance of finding a competent farrier by hiring an AFA certified farrier than by taking pot luck on the feed store bulletin board. AFA certification gives an owner the ability to choose between known and unknown.

The question for the horse owner is whether or not what is known is relevant and whether or not what is known is a reliable indicator of what they need to know...which is, can the farrier provide what they and their horse needs.



How often do you repeat this these days

"A choice between farriers who've volunteered to test their skills against an arbitrary standard and those farriers who, for whatever reason, have either chosen not to test their skills or have failed the test..."

Every chance I get! You'll be seeing it a lot.

I find it a bit disingenuous.

Small wonder that you might; apparently, it hits close to home.

Only in that I shoe horses for a living these days and spend some time on this board where conversations like this take place.

Oh yes...the "arbitrary standard". Do you need an arbitrary standard when you have the real thing to work with every day?

In context, the word "arbitrary" is used with reference to a testing standard. While you may not choose to measure your knowledge and motor skills against an arbitrary standard, others may choose to do so in the interest of becoming a better farrier. And, if you don't think the work and study necessary to pass the AFA's CF or CJF will make a better farrier out of any farrier, you're living in a dream world.

Better is a relative term that doesn't necessarily imply relevance. This is something that I recently considered long and hard. After being away from full time farrier for quite a long time and deciding to come back I was faced with a limited amount of time to prepare. In looking at what is tested and the nature of my work, there were more relevant and more advantageous ways to use my time.

I'll give an example. I can forge a bar shoe and in fact put on a pair that I forged just a week or so ago. However, I rarely have the need to do it. In order to build a nice creased bar shoe in a timed test it would certainly be wise to spend some time, fuel and stock up practicing. You could argue that being able to make a faster bar shoe would make me a better farrier but it just doesn't have any relevance to my business and my clients don't care. I can forge a pattern welded blade too but my clients don't care about that either.

What else? Shoe fit, flatness...sort of run of the mill stuff that I've done for years and years and I and my clients know that I can fit a shoe anyway I want whether the AFA knows it or not.

I could be faster at everything. Almost 17 years at a desk didn't do a thing for my speed. This is relevant but I don't need the AFA to help me work on it. Whether or not I pass the AFA test isn't relevant. What is relevant is the number of horses I can get shod in the number of hours I can stay bent over and whether or not I can keep up with my work load.

So, in all honesty, there is a good chance that I couldn't pass the test today and speed would likely be the big road block (although I don't remember what the time requirements are). Being faster would be a good thing for my profitability but it isn't immediately relevant to my clients and has no bearing on the quality of work that I do.

So yes, I would have to get "better" to pass the test but not "better" in a way that my clients would care about.

Why do most farriers not take the AFA test?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I can sure as hell tell you why I took the tests and I was among the first to take both the CF and CJF tests here in Texas. With me, it was pride, pure and simple. I take an inordinate amount of pride in my work and I wanted to see how I measured up to the AFA's standards.

I take a great deal of pride in my work also. I know my work and I know my strong and weak areas. Some of my clients have known and used farriers that are or were regarded as some of the best and that's what I have to live up to. That's the standard that I'm tested to every day. It isn't the least bit arbitrary. The horses either perform or they don't. Any perspective new client can access knowledgable professionals who's familiarity with my work goes back many years.

The real answers may not be what you would like to believe or what you would have the target audience of your ads believe.

I'll take my chances. I think the public wants and needs a reliable indicator of any prospective farrier's knowledge and skills without having to rely on the feedstore bulletin board, the boarder in the next stall, or similar unreliable sources. The AFA's tests are, without question, the most widely available reliable indicator of a farrier's knowledge and ability available in this country.

I would agree that the feed store bulletin board provides no information other than maybe a phone number. However, I disagree that the AFA test the most widely available reliable indicator of a farrier's knowledge and ability available in this country. The statement is more than questionable. It's obsurd for a number of reasons.

First the AFA test is no indication of knowledge or skill at all except for at the most basic level...it just doesn't test ones ability to know and do what the horse needs.

Even if it did, what the horse owner needs to know is not if the farrier "could do" but if they "are doing". A horse owners best and most reliable course of action is to educate themselves. A horse owner who knows what they are looking at and knows what questions to as of the farrier and the farriers references can do a fine job of figuring out what the farrier is actually doing on a day to day basis.

If the horse owner wants the BEST farrier for the job, certification is, again, no indicator at all. Researching the farriers actual experience relative to the job at hand is the best way. Given that there are so many good and very experienced farriers who are not certified, it's more than possible that culling based on certification could have the apposite effect and eliminate the "best" from consideration right from the start.

Nothing including certification is going to insure that the lazzy or cheap horse owner gets good reliable farrier service.

Advertising certification is a good business move for the AFA. It might even help give the guys who have "AFA Certified Jouneymen Farrier" painted on the side of their truck a competative advantage with certain clients (probably not the best clients). But I and quite a few horse owners have been around too long to believe that it's going to do much for the horse owner. You can say it all you want but that doesn't make it true.

reillyshoe in gray, deletia

Does this change the idea that the AFA has never promoted the concept of certified farriers to the public?

The AFA has never made a concerted effort to inform the public of the existence of the certification program. Up 'til now, AFA certification has been one of the best kept secrets in the industry, but we're going to change that.

Does this affect the reason more farriers are not either certified or members of the AFA?

Lack of public demand for AFA certified farriers is probably the main reason more farriers have not chosen to stand for the tests. For nearly 30 years, the public has not been made aware of the fact they have a choice between farriers who've chosen to measure their skills against a standard and farriers who, for whatever reason, have either chosen not to test their skills or have failed the test. Demand will follow public awareness.

I stand by my position that the current plan is not working.

What plan? Until the recent elections, there was no plan in existence; at present, a plan to inform the public of the benefits of AFA certification is being formulated and it will be put into effect as soon as feasible.

Mike Ferrara wrote: While you may have experience with SCUBA certification, you have not put in evidence anything that indicates that you have any experience being a certified farrier or actually going through the process. I can speak from experience with SCUBA certification, two farrier certification programs, and multiple Information Technology certifications.

From my personal experience, your analogy between recreational SCUBA certification and farrier certification is a really bad analogy. That is because you are NOT qualified by experience with both certification systems.

I sought farrier certification for the same reason that I sought IT certifications. It was a business decision. Getting certified in recreational SCUBA is not a business decision. Now if you want to compare AFA certification to Microsoft, Novell, SANS, or Cisco certification then you are talking business. Right now you talking about recreational activities and comparing them to business activities. AND you are attempting to sound knowledgeable about farrier certification and the benefits thereof without having gone through the process.

That is a classic bad business move - making a decision without information.

Bottom line. You'll never find a farrier who has passed an AFA certification saying that they didn't come out a better farrier from going through the process. If you go through it and get through without giving up, you will learn something new - you'll be better educated and more skilled.

What's wrong with being better educated and more skilled than you were before? Remember you aren't qualified to answer that question from experience. You keep reinforcing this point with your reference to recreation and comparison to business.

AND you can't compare your capability with the capability of a certified farrier, because you have no way of knowing how you would have benefited from the certification process. Therefore, how somebody else benefited relative to you is irrelavent - other than that they got better than they were.

Back to the question of why more farriers aren't AFA members or certified...speaking for myself, it's because of a fundamental disagreement in regard to just about everything. If this new push takes place it would be the perfect example. I have enough work so I don't need the AFA to help me in that regard. Even if pushing certification is of real benefit to horse owners (which I don't believe), it still isn't what I want to pay the AFA to do. Is the AFA a farriers organization or a horse owners organization. I don't care about forgeing contests either.

What could the AFA do that I would have interest in? Not really all that much. Educational oportunities are fine but we have those all over the place. Buying power applied to necessities like insurance would be good but they aren't there yet. There just isn't much that I need ANY organization for and the AFA isn't doing ANY of it. They are a complete non-factor. Maybe they could do something to be of little use to me but there isn't anything they could do to be of great value.

That's where certification comes back in and the point I was trying to make using the dive industry. I don't need the dive certification agencies for anything either. However, they have placed themselves in a position that they actually control access to a significan't percentage of diving or diving related products. You can dive without their certifications but not everyplace. you can buy compressed gas without them but not at a dive shop. You can NOT purchase underwater liability insurance without an agency affiliation. If I went back into the dive business I would have NO CHIOCE but to do business with them again. The only way I would need to do business with the AFA or any other organization is if they control access.

Since there isn't anything the AFA can do that I need done, the only way I would become a member again is if they took away or severely limited my choice.

I think some real market research might well show that the lack of interest in the AFA by many farriers as well as many horse owners is due to similar reasons.

tbloomer wrote:
It wasn't meant just as an analogy but as an example of what can be done with certification and how an organization can compell people to seek their certification.
My experience with dive industry certifications extends well beyond "recreational". While many of my students only had a recreational interest in diving, I was in business and held MANY professional level certifications with multiple agencies. I wasn't just diving for fun. I was teaching underwater for money.

While I haven't gone through the AFA certification process, I can certainly read the test requirements and I certainly do have experience in the things tested on the AFA test.
but I have the information. In business you don't go out and do everything to decide whether or not it's what you should do. You make decisions based on numbers and research and not always on direct experience.

TRIP HAMMER wrote: John,

What tripe. If anyone is responsible or should have any shame or guilt it is the one who leaked in the first place.

If I got the information from a source that is not a member of the AFA I feel it is quite fare to believe that the information is a matter of public information but that the membership had not be told in mass thus relieving me of any possible confidentiality obligation. I just asked for official conformation. That is a lot different that me being told something is confidential, giving my word to keep it confidential and then telling the world about it. The only transference that is happening here is your trying to cover someone’s ass and attack me while doing it.

If you don't like having things discussed before you announce them the way I see it is that you boys have two choices. Keep your mouths shut or make announcements as soon as decisions are made so no one else has a chance to say something before you do. Since there is ample proof that you boys don’t have the ability to keep your mouths shut, I’d suggest you get your announcements made in a timely fashion. It isn’t hard and there are lots of tools for you to use that won’t cost you much in money or effort.

By the way, questioning leaders about their leadership decisions and style is not equal to trying to tear down any organization or government. The only people that I can think of that think that way are dictators and despots. So you boys need to grow up and stop trying to flog anyone that questions or disagrees with you before you confirm your status as one o the other.

Mike Ferrara in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

The question for the horse owner is whether or not what is know is relevant adn whether or not what is known is a reliable indicator of what they need to know...which is can the farrier provide what they and their horse needs.

In its most basic form, AFA certification assures a horse's connections that the farrier actually knows which way to turn a nail; they have no such assurance when they choose a farrier by most other means. Known verses unknown.

While you may not choose to measure your knowledge and motor skills against an arbitrary standard, others may choose to do so in the interest of becoming a better farrier. And, if you don't think the work and study necessary to pass the AFA's CF or CJF will make a better farrier out of any farrier, you're living in a dream world.

Better is a relative term that doesn't necessarily imply relevance.

As used, the term "better farrier" means, "a better farrier than before the study and practice necessary to pass the test." I dunno about in your business, but in mine, I've never been satisfied with the status quo, I've always figured there was room for improvement. Thus, becoming "better" has always had a great deal of relevance to me.

What else? Shoe fit, flatness...sort of run of the mill stuff that I've done for years and years and I and my clients know that I can fit a shoe anyway I want whether the AFA knows it or not.

Your clients are not the targeted demographic. The folks we're trying to reach are those who need the services of a competent farrier and don't have any means of determing ability other than the feedstore bulletin board and the usual suspects. A casual perusal of this, or any other, board will reveal that these folks are legion.

So, in all honesty, there is a good chance that I couldn't pass the test today and speed would likely be the big road block (although I don't remember what the time requirements are). Being faster would be a good thing for my profitability but it isn't immediately relevant to my clients and has no bearing on the quality of work that I do.

In all honesty, certification is not about the farrier, it's about giving the horse owner the ability to find a competent farrier without wading through a bunch of hacks.

So yes, I would have to get "better" to pass the test but not "better" in a way that my clients would care about.

I took the tests because I care about getting better. Different strokes.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I can sure as hell tell you why I took the tests and I was among the first to take both the CF and CJF tests here in Texas. With me, it was pride, pure and simple. I take an inordinate amount of pride in my work and I wanted to see how I measured up to the AFA's standards.

I take a great deal of pride in my work also. I know my work and I know my strong and weak areas. Some of my clients have known and used farriers that are or were regarded as some of the best and that's what I have to live up to. That's the standard that I'm tested to every day. It isn't the least bit arbitrary. The horses either perform or they don't. Any perspective new client can access knowledgable professionals who's familiarity with my work goes back about 25 years.

At my end of the sandpile, merely performing is not good enough. Folks with race/show/performance horses want their horses to perform as well as they possibly can. There's considerable truth in the old track bromide that goes, "Anybody can shoe a stakes horse, but it takes a helluva hand to move a cheap claimer."

I think the public wants and needs a reliable indicator of any prospective farrier's knowledge and skills without having to rely on the feedstore bulletin board, the boarder in the next stall, or similar unreliable sources. The AFA's tests are, without question, the most widely available reliable indicator of a farrier's knowledge and ability available in this country.

I would agree that the feed store bulletin board provides no information other than maybe a phone number. However, I disagree that the AFA test the most widely available reliable indicator of a farrier's knowledge and ability available in this country. The statement is more than questionable. It's obsurd for a number of reasons.

First the AFA test is no indication of knowledge or skill at all except for at the most basic level...it just doesn't test ones ability to know and do what the horse needs.

The AFA CF makes no pretense of testing a farrier's ability to assess and address a horse's needs, other than testing one's knowledge of therapéutic/palliative shoes and their application. However, should you ever choose to stand for the CF test, you'll find it a good indicator of one's knowledge of basic equid anatomy and physiology, a fair test of one's ability to apply one's knowledge and motor skills to the modification/forging of shoes, and an excellent indicator of one's ability to apply shoes.

Even if it did, what the horse owner needs to know is not if the farrier could but if they are.

First, an owner needs to know whether or not a prospective farrier knows which way to turn a nail. Hiring an AFA certified farrier separates that particular known from the unknown.

A horse owners best and most reliable course of action is to educate themselves.

On this point, we are in total agreement. As I see it, when it comes to farriery, an owner's education begins with their being made aware of their choices and all those choices entail when it comes to picking a farrier.

A horse owner who knows what they are looking at and know what questions to as of the farrier and the farriers references can do a fine job of figuring out what the farrier is actually doing on a day to day basis.

Very few owners are capable of assessing farriery. I've seen a bazillion farrier-made cripples come through the clinics that their owners thought were getting the best of farrier care. References? They may or may not be meaningful, depending on their source. On the other hand, AFA certification is objectively quantified and indicative of both knowledge and motor skills.

If the horse owner wants the BEST farrier for the job, certification is, again, no indicator at all.

Certification is unquestionably indicative of a certain degree of ability, while "best" is a subjective assessment. Apples and oranges.

Researching the farriers actual experience relative to the job at hand is the best way to determin.

Experience is indicative of chronology, not quality.

Given that there are so many good and very experienced farriers who are not certified, it's more than possible that culling based on certification could have the oposit effect and iliminate the "best" from consideration right from the start.

Farriers with a deserved reputation for being the best at what they do stay covered up, certified or not; given their lack of availability, it follows that the public is well served by having a means of culling farriers on the basis of certification because that gives them a choice between known and unknown qualities.

Nothing including certification is going to insure that the lazzy or cheap horse owner gets good reliable farrier service.

Now you're preaching to the choir.

Advertising certification is a good business move for the AFA.

It's an even better move for the horse owning public.

Back to the question of why more farriers aren't AFA members or certified...speaking for myself, it's because of a fundamental disagreement in regard to just about everything. If this new push takes place it would be the perfect example. I have enough work so I don't need the AFA to help me in that regard. Even if pushing certification is of real benefit to horse owners (which I don't believe), it still isn't what I want to pay the AFA to do. Is the AFA a farriers organization or a farriers organization. I don't care about firgeing contests either.

LMAO! Certification ain't about helping you, it's about helping the public.

Since there isn't anything the AFA can do that I need done, the only way I would become a member again is if they took away or severely limited my choice.

Nobody is out to limit anyone's choices, the AFA is about making the public aware that they have choices.

I think some real market research might well show that the lack of interest in the AFA by many farriers as well as many horse owners is due to similar reasons.

As I see it, creating public demand for AFA certification will be the first step in improving the overall qualitry of farriery in this country.

TRIP HAMMER wrote: See my reply on the AFA discussion board.