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Poll: Would licensing help our professional image?

o, things are fine as they currently stand 45 52.3%
es, licensing would lend to our credibility 41 47.7%
Total number of voters: 37 See more
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TOPIC: Would Farrier Licensing Help?

RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 30 Jul 2007 18:27 #301

George Geist wrote:
JHU dues go for benefits. Unlike your AFA they work on behalf of the interests of their membership.

On October 15, 2003 the International Union of Journeymen Horseshoers & Allied Trades, claiming more than 75,000 active and retired members, endorsed Rep. Dick Gephardt for President.
Cordell Rogers
CPA, MAcc, not yet CF
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 30 Jul 2007 18:37 #302

  • George Geist
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Since it appears a few of you won't let this thing go I'll be the one to start another thread in an effort to keep this one on track
George
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 30 Jul 2007 21:49 #303

reillyshoe wrote:
I did not start this thread with the sole purpose of forcing vets to respect us. Respect is an earned commodity, as I am sure someone here is bound to point out. However, if one can only practice our profession with some degree of qualifiction, that might change how we are viewed by others in the horse industry. Additionally, our opinion would potentially carry more weight if our expertise was recognized as a matter of law.

I would also point out that the poll results have crept closer together since the argument turned to specific unions and organizations. I wonder what to make of this?


I have heard on the backside and at barns; comments like, "I don't give a rat *** what association he's with; he didn't go to vet school, and what does he know. He just here to put shoes on that's all. As long as I don't have to put the shoes on, that's was they (farriers) are for. Always laughing........I get around, because I don't tell vets what I do for a living, and look "very feminine", as well. So, I get to be the fly on the wall to hear what they really won't say in front of you, my dear. The laughter is worse if you are a woman. They will actually said it to your face.
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 01:55 #304

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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George Geist in gray, deltia

Your as cynical a man as I've ever seen. Maybe even worse than myself. Why do you think your AFA certification is presided over by the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary?

Not only am I cynical, I'm pragmatic. Passing or failing the AFA's tests won't keep somebody from working unless they're thinking about emigrating to the UK, so there's no real incentive for a testor to fail a qualified testee; on the other hand, according to the CRB, the JHU can, and has, used their test to keep platers from working at CA tracks. For any slow learners amongst us, that's why they got the boot. :)

This argument could go on forever. Fact is our passing rate is excellent. AFA's is very poor. Again in my local the buck stops here.

Did it ever occur to you that one test might be more difficult than the other, in terms of both knowledge and motor skills. Probably not. By the way, how'd you do on the AFA Journeyman test?

Wrong, the state of Florida has no racing commission. To their credit they prove every day how unnecessary such political hacks are.

Mr. Geist, if you work on the backside, you work at the pleasure of a political apointee. You're not required to like that fact, but if you have any doubts, just put a needle and syringe on your dash and drive by the guard shack until somebody notices.

JHU dues go for benefits. Unlike your AFA they work on behalf of the interests of their membership.

Benefits? What exactly are the benefits of belonging to the JHU? You get to pay dues to work at union tracks, but in my experience, a horse's foot looks largely the same whether it's at a union track or in a right-to-work state and wages/living costs are similar, so why would anyone but a sheep want to be in a union?

Again unlike the AFA, testing is required of prospective members. Thus anyone with journeyman status has successfully passed the Union's test.
The exception to that would be apprentices.


Just so we're on the same page, is it your claim that every union member (apprentices excepted) has taken and passed the JHU test? Please think before you answer.

What is it you always say, opinion doesn't make it fact?

Nossir, I'm fond of saying that belief is not knowledge. So I'll ask once again: Is it your contention that every JHU member (apprentices excepted) has taken and passed the union test?

I certainly do hope that you will now dissassociate yourself from anything having to do with the sport of rodeo and never again speak to anyone involved in such a criminal enterprise. I'd hate to think of you being involved with such undesireables :rolleyes:

Perhaps your association with the JHU has brainwashed you into thinking that independence is somehow undesirable. Rodeo is the antithesis of unionism because there are no deadweights among pro cowboys: If you're cowboying for a living, at any level, you either make a hand or go home.

For the question you continue harping on see above.

I'm waiting for your answer, a simple yes or no will suffice. Before you answer, please be aware that I've been around a while and this ain't my first rodeo. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 02:04 #305

Tom Stovall, CJF]George Geist in gray, deltia

Your as cynical a man as I've ever seen. Maybe even worse than myself. Why do you think your AFA certification is presided over by the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary?

Not only am I cynical, I'm pragmatic. Passing or failing the AFA's tests won't keep somebody from working unless they're thinking about emigrating to the UK, so there's no real incentive for a testor to fail a qualified testee wrote:
This argument could go on forever. Fact is our passing rate is excellent. AFA's is very poor. Again in my local the buck stops here.[/color]

Did it ever occur to you that one test might be more difficult than the other, in terms of both knowledge and motor skills. Probably not. By the way, how'd you do on the AFA Journeyman test?

Wrong, the state of Florida has no racing commission. To their credit they prove every day how unnecessary such political hacks are.

Mr. Geist, if you work on the backside, you work at the pleasure of a political apointee. You're not required to like that fact, but if you have any doubts, just put a needle and syringe on your dash and drive by the guard shack until somebody notices.

JHU dues go for benefits. Unlike your AFA they work on behalf of the interests of their membership.

Benefits? What exactly are the benefits of belonging to the JHU? You get to pay dues to work at union tracks, but in my experience, a horse's foot looks largely the same whether it's at a union track or in a right-to-work state and wages/living costs are similar, so why would anyone but a sheep want to be in a union?

Again unlike the AFA, testing is required of prospective members. Thus anyone with journeyman status has successfully passed the Union's test.
The exception to that would be apprentices.


Just so we're on the same page, is it your claim that every union member (apprentices excepted) has taken and passed the JHU test? Please think before you answer.

What is it you always say, opinion doesn't make it fact?

Nossir, I'm fond of saying that belief is not knowledge. So I'll ask once again: Is it your contention that every JHU member (apprentices excepted) has taken and passed the union test?

I certainly do hope that you will now dissassociate yourself from anything having to do with the sport of rodeo and never again speak to anyone involved in such a criminal enterprise. I'd hate to think of you being involved with such undesireables :rolleyes:

Perhaps your association with the JHU has brainwashed you into thinking that independence is somehow undesirable. Rodeo is the antithesis of unionism because there are no deadweights among pro cowboys: If you're cowboying for a living, at any level, you either make a hand or go home.

For the question you continue harping on see above.

I'm waiting for your answer, a simple yes or no will suffice. Before you answer, please be aware that I've been around a while and this ain't my first rodeo. :)


Hey Tom give a rest already. Besides benefits for all is what I am trying to accomplish here!
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 02:42 #306

  • J.H. shoeing
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Could you lay out the plan that you have to get benefits for all?
Jeff Holder

Some people are like Slinky’s, pretty much useless but make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 02:44 #307

  • Gary Hill
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I have all of 2 cents to add. First, if I was in a Union I would EXPECT that that Union would provide a "way "for me to get the Insurance my family would need? Secondly, you are not going to find a Blanket Insurance Policy that covers all of us Farriers, due to the States have some sort of individual policies that flat will not cover us all? Now I ask WHY doesn't the Big Ins. Companys jump at the opportunite to cover us all? Answer is ,we are involved in a trade that borders on what they think is inbetween Rodeo and Lion Training! Not something they really want to cover expenses for? All you have to do is sit down with an Ins Agent and they will show you who is High Risk and why they don't want to cover us. Little homework answers the questions.
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 02:53 #308

  • George Geist
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Gary Hill wrote:
I have all of 2 cents to add. First, if I was in a Union I would EXPECT that that Union would provide a "way "for me to get the Insurance my family would need? Secondly, you are not going to find a Blanket Insurance Policy that covers all of us Farriers, due to the States have some sort of individual policies that flat will not cover us all? Now I ask WHY doesn't the Big Ins. Companys jump at the opportunite to cover us all? Answer is ,we are involved in a trade that borders on what they think is inbetween Rodeo and Lion Training! Not something they really want to cover expenses for? All you have to do is sit down with an Ins Agent and they will show you who is High Risk and why they don't want to cover us. Little homework answers the questions.
Gary,
I do hope you tell them you're a popcorn man!!!!

The Unions policy is a good one. It is the same you would get if working for a company. In other words no checkup, no bothering you about a pre-existing condition, and no deductibles. I would bet that most of you guys that have something else are probably burdened with those things. And they know fully well what we do for a living.

Fact is the situation will continue to get worse as far as affordability. This is the insurance industry. With a public health service as every other developed nation in the world has, we could once and for all be rid of this problem.
George
For another fun place to play........
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 02:59 #309

  • Gary Hill
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George, I wouldn't want to cover the expenses in selling popcorn to the public anymore! Someone might choke on a kernel and I'd be liable! :eek:
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 05:58 #310

  • Bill Adams
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George Geist wrote:
With a public health service as every other developed nation in the world has, we could once and for all be rid of this problem.
George
If we went with a health plan like Canada and Europe, who would take care of the people in these countrys who come to the US for treatment?
Northern Ohio is called 'The hip replacement capital of Canada'.
Bill

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 07:23 #311

  • George Geist
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Probably would continue much as it is. Toronto is now #1 in the world for hernia operations in it's own right.

Sorry Pat Reilly, I did make an attempt at moving this stuff off of this thread.
George
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 31 Jul 2007 15:19 #312

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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ladyblacksmith in gray, deletia

Hey Tom give a rest already.

Give it rest? Why? Is the union's inability to provide worthwhile benefits for its members hitting too close to home? Are you tired of forking over $300 a year in order to work? Is reality setting in?

Besides benefits for all is what I am trying to accomplish here!

Do tell? Since the JHU can't provide benefits for its own members, what makes you think the happily independent farriers on this fourm either want or need someone to "accomplish" this for them?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against unions, I firmly believe that workers should have the ability to organize - but I think any kind of closed shop sucks goobers because they are demonstrably exclusionary. Other than admittance to a good 'ol boy club operating in the cushy confines of the fiscally artifical constraints of a closed shop, what exactly does the JHU offer its membership?

For some reason, folks tend to forget that unions are legal in right-to-work states. In most, workers have the right to organize and management has the right to get rid of anyone for any reason. In right-to-work states, it's no work no eat, and management tends to rid itself of deadweights in a hurry, a policy some unionists find discombobulating. Those unions that exist in right-to-work states are viable because they are demonstrably beneficial to their members, not becuse they enjoy artificial security of a closed shop. Closed shops are illegal, which means a union in a right-to-work state exists solely on the basis of its value to the rank and file, not because its members are forced to join if they want to work as delineated by Mr. Geist with reference to the Philadelphia track.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 03 Aug 2007 02:01 #313

I believe that the best way to end the licencing issue is:
turn this into the professional trade and profession that it is and you go to college/university and receive a degree in the sciences of B.S.; Masters, or Ph.D. in farriery.
I have always thought this way; and Mike F on another thread said something simular to what I have always truely believed in.

1. Obtaining from a B.S.; Masters, or Ph.D. in equine podiatry, paleotology of fossil horses, anatomy/physiology, nutrition, lameness, biomechanics, necropcy of the lower limb, and basic equine studies. Would be at any Vet School in the country added to the corriculumn.

2. Forging of "all" tests using the Union for racing, both Thoroughbred and Standardbred swage test; and the AFA, BWFA, and the Guild testing on a Journeyman level combined for all degree candiates.

3. You would be a Doctor of Equine Podiatry, and of course, with that you still would have to licenced to practice like any other professional.

I believe this is probably the only way to reconized by the horse industry in itself.
Sorry, but licencing it will come one way or another.

.....................................Linda................................................
PS: have 1 year of animal/equine science college courses added to my degree in business.
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 03 Aug 2007 03:24 #314

  • Gary Hill
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Miss Linda, last time I looked at a dollar bill it said "United States of America" Not "Union "of Socialist Republics?
My point is I could give a rats donkey to whether I can or even want to swage a standardbred or TB shoe! I used to visit the Blacksmiths at Ben White Raceway in Orlando back in the very later 70's and early 80's. I sat and watched and was amazed! Do I do what they do in my everyday rounds? Well ,I do use my forge on every shoe on almost every horse. I don't count resets. Anyway WHY would I need to test for horses I don't shoe? I'm in CowHorse country, want to come shoe cutters, reiners, barrel and rope horses ? For that matter I don't shoe dressage, runners or jumpers anymore for that fact. I do have a few heavies, some minis, alot of gaited and tons of Cowhorse type. If someone wants to follow me or anyone else around to see if I/we can shoe horses, then let them load up and come along. We all shoe differant breeds for differant uses. Just because you can master or journeyman one breed ,don't mean you can set up or shoe another with the same skills? Shareing info is a darn site better that it was back in the 70's and I am glad folks share their experiences here on this great site Baron provides for us. Now to lighten it up abit , you don't really look like George do ya!? :D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Would Farrier Licensing Help? 03 Aug 2007 10:52 #315

Gary Hill wrote:
Miss Linda, last time I looked at a dollar bill it said "United States of America" Not "Union "of Socialist Republics?
My point is I could give a rats donkey to whether I can or even want to swage a standardbred or TB shoe! I used to visit the Blacksmiths at Ben White Raceway in Orlando back in the very later 70's and early 80's. I sat and watched and was amazed! Do I do what they do in my everyday rounds? Well ,I do use my forge on every shoe on almost every horse. I don't count resets. Anyway WHY would I need to test for horses I don't shoe? I'm in CowHorse country, want to come shoe cutters, reiners, barrel and rope horses ? For that matter I don't shoe dressage, runners or jumpers anymore for that fact. I do have a few heavies, some minis, alot of gaited and tons of Cowhorse type. If someone wants to follow me or anyone else around to see if I/we can shoe horses, then let them load up and come along. We all shoe differant breeds for differant uses. Just because you can master or journeyman one breed ,don't mean you can set up or shoe another with the same skills? Shareing info is a darn site better that it was back in the 70's and I am glad folks share their experiences here on this great site Baron provides for us. Now to lighten it up abit , you don't really look like George do ya!? :D



...................Knowledge Perceived is Knowledge Achieve...................
.................................................................by Linda..............

.......................................and.......................................................

No Darling, I don't look like George!!!!

Very s-e-x-y, pretty, intellient, articulate, education, strong, quick-witted Lady all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The JHU has the most prettiest blacksmith in their organization!!!!!!
and AFA guys here can not disagree with that!!!..........

......Love Ya baby, .....Linda.........
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