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TOPIC: Testing for other organizations

RE:Testing for other organizations 02 Apr 2007 19:16 #46

Thanks George!

I know I ruffled some feathers and your right it was fun.

If you could give me some info on the Union that would be great.

Thanks, Jamin
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RE:Testing for other organizations 02 Apr 2007 20:36 #47

Gary_Miller wrote:
Phil
I thought you were retired from the USAF?

If so why aren't you on Tri-Care health insurance. At $480 a year plus your $12 co-pay for office visits you can't beat the deal.

Gary, I am Retired Air National Gaurd. Do not get the full retirement benefits until age 60. Unless things have changed.

Does Tri-Care also cover my spouse?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Testing for other organizations 02 Apr 2007 21:46 #48

  • Rick Burten
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beslagsmed wrote:
I am sure if I ask any Guild member if I could come and practice with them to pass the test, they would be more than glad to assist me in this way. Right or wrong Guild members?
Absolutely correct. At least in my instance, all ya' gotta' do is show up. I've plenty enough tools to go around and can easily fully outfit anyone who wants to work and learn. Got a big house too and friends, old and new are always welcome.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Testing for other organizations 02 Apr 2007 22:07 #49

  • Rick Burten
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jaminkindt wrote:
When you bash the AFA. When you bash the BWFA. That to me is saying that "I am better than you" And that my way of doing things are better, and they probably are but I don't think anyone should have anything negative to say about our fellow farrier assoc.
So if one of the aforementioned associations would let you purchase your certification or say purchase one for your dog, we should consider this a good thing? :confused:
Would the Guild assist me in passing their test? NO.
Absolutely incorrect. Well, let me expound on that a bit. Will the Guild help you pass your written, as in provide you with the answers to the test questions ahead of time. Of course not. That would make the test of your empirical knowledge a sham. Would Guild members help you with your shoe display? Of course they would. They would help you by offering constructive criticism and when appropriate, praise, for the work you've done. Would a Guild member show you how to make a modification that was required for the shoe display? Of course s/he would. Would a Guild member make the modifications for you so that you could turn the work in as your own? Of course not. Would a Guild member help you prepare for the practical? Of course s/he would. In fact, when I took my practical, I had never worked in coal before. The only forges available for me to work from were coal forges. While the Guild members present were proscribed from helping me trim the feet or forge the shoes, they were not proscribed from offering me some helpful advise on how to manage that coal forge. Think that would be the case elsewhere?
Why? Because and I quote: "the Guild is not here to coddle, educate, and support aspiring farriers"
While I might have couched it in different terms, the salient term here is aspiring farriers. The Guild wants farriers who already possess the requisite skill, knowledge and ability to pass a rigorous practical field exam. That's why you can't even join the Guild until you have four years of verifiable full time experience. And you will be required to provide that verification before your application is accepted. Compare that to the somewhat "laissez-faire" approach taken by other organizations.
I am all about being the best, well rounded farrier I can be, but just like so many farriers out there I need help in doing that.
Good on you! The opportunities to further your skill and education abound. When you have enough of them, you'll be ready to be a member of the Guild.
If someone from the Guild would like to contact me, I would love to talk about getting the help in need to be certified through them.
The help is already there. The Guild practical is about what you do everyday. When that work is sufficient, you'll be ready to take the Guild practical and you won't need any coaching or molycoddling.
All I was saying in my first post was that young farriers that I have talked to are not big on the Guild.
How could they be? Generally speaking they possess neither the skill nor the ability nor the knowledge to meet the entrance requirements. The Guild has set the bar rather high and IMNTBCHO, it needs to be set even higher, especially on the written exam.

I have, on several occasions, opined to the Guild officers and membership that it is past time to end the grandfathering in of members because of their accomplishments for other farrier organizations. That said, consider this. At this time, there is only one national farrier's association whose credentials are not accepted by the Guild. Maybe you should think on that and wonder why. Or not. No me importa.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Testing for other organizations 02 Apr 2007 23:37 #50

Mr. Burten,
What week can I come and work with you??

Jamin
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RE:Testing for other organizations 02 Apr 2007 23:46 #51

  • Bill Adams
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Jamin,
Welcome.
As you go through life you may find that PC atitudes may hold you back or allow you to be run over.
Some organizations are better than others. To be holier than someone else is a good thing. To try and make everyone nice and equal unjustly raises up the lesser and pulls down the best.
Rick, just a couple of weeks ago traveled hundreds of miles to help Farriers improve, and got good reviews.
Don't look for what you can get, look for a place to give to and help and you will be blown away at what you recive.
Myself and a couple of others have been getting a clinic together every spring, and it's a lot of work and dealing with whineing Farriers sucks. As an orgianizer I get to have dinner before and drinks after with some of the top hands in our trade and that is well worth it. Also doing all this extra work for my fellow Farriers makes me holier than, well, thou art.
Bill

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 01:01 #52

  • J.H. shoeing
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please see post 44. May have missed it due to the feed back coming in so rapidly.
Jeff Holder

Some people are like Slinky’s, pretty much useless but make you smile when you push them down the stairs.
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 01:06 #53

Thanks I did miss it!

Jamin
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 01:17 #54

  • Gary_Miller
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Gary, I am Retired Air National Gaurd. Do not get the full retirement benefits until age 60. Unless things have changed.
I don't know anything about the gaurd and their retirement program.

Does Tri-Care also cover my spouse? [/QUOTE]Yes. The price I gave is for the entire family.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 03:29 #55

  • George Geist
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Hey Phil,
Being in the military as long as you were dont you at least qualify for VA medical?
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 03:56 #56

  • Rick Burten
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jaminkindt wrote:
Mr. Burten,
What week can I come and work with you??

Jamin
Any week I'm working or even if I'm not in the field, we can always bend steel and crack the books.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 06:04 #57

  • tbloomer
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jaminkindt]I don't want or mean to disrespect or offend any one but...

I think that the Guild's "HOLIER THAN THOU" attitude is putting off alot of farriers that are just getting into this profession.[/QUOTE]We're only putting them off about 4 years. Are you whineing about it? You're asking questions that were already asked and answered in this thread. Try going back to the beginning and reading all of it.
You say that the Guild is not there to coddle,educate, and support aspiring farriers but I would bet money that 99% of farriers on this site have apprenticed with another farrier.
Are you saying that's a bad thing?
I'm thinking you have not paid much attention to what I said about apprenticeship in my previous posts.
If you only want serious, dedicated, career professionals, then why don't you teach them how to shoe at "your level"?
You're asking questions that were already asked and answered in this thread. Try going back to the beginning and reading all of it.
I would personally rather join an assoc. that offers me some sort of insurance, pension plan, and somewhere I can go to continue my education as a farrier. I think these benifits are alot better than an assoc. that offers a hat and a bumper sticker!
And what do you have to give back besides your dues? What will be your contribution? At what point will you begin to give something back?
It doesn't matter what assoc. you belong to, we are all doing this for the same reason wrote:
Some of us belong to multiple associations for multiple reasons. If you haven't got something going on close to home, you can start an association or organize and promote a clinic in your area. If you want more education, then get together with a dozen farriers in your area and bring in a clinician for a weekend.
Again, NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE it's just my 2 cents.
I certainly don't feel disrespected. I just feel that you're asking questions that have already been answered on this thread. In addition you've got 3 different farriers offering to help you with your education, and my suggestions above about what you can do to get some continuing education going in your local area.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 07:13 #58

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I hate to break it to you but the guild is in no position to determine what a "fully qualified professional" farrier is.
I'm going to use the word "opinion" because you have not stated a logical fact. So, is that your qualified or unqualified opinion? How do you know you're qulified enough to have an opinion on farrier qualifications? At what point in you career did you decide you were qualified to call yourself a professional? Was it the first day you got paid to shoe a horse? Where did you personally (in your own assesment of yourself) cross the line from rookie to professional? What factors determined your evaluation of yourself and to what standards or objectives or achievements did you compare your knowledge and ability? Did you just decide one day to call yourself a farrier, and from that day forward you considered yourself a fully qualified professional? At the point you decided you were a farrier, what qualified YOU to make that determination? Is it your contention that self referential quantification is social refernetial integrity? Wouldn't that be a referential causality loop?
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 10:45 #59

  • Mike Ferrara
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tbloomer wrote:
I'm going to use the word "opinion" because you have not stated a logical fact.
"Opinion" is a word you should use more often.

So, is that your qualified or unqualified opinion? How do you know you're qulified enough to have an opinion on farrier qualifications? At what point in you career did you decide you were qualified to call yourself a professional? Was it the first day you got paid to shoe a horse? Where did you personally (in your own assesment of yourself) cross the line from rookie to professional?

You're so concerned with names and titles. What is unprofessional about a "rookie"? When I was granted a degree from a university and took a job with a corporation, I was a rookie with no on the job experience, yet I was a professional. Mind you, I hadn't taken merley a single test but many many tests, practicals exams, projects and papers over a period of years.

You want to make farriery a profession more like engineering with a single test? That's total nonsense...in my opinion.

What factors determined your evaluation of yourself and to what standards or objectives or achievements did you compare your knowledge and ability? Did you just decide one day to call yourself a farrier, and from that day forward you considered yourself a fully qualified professional? At the point you decided you were a farrier, what qualified YOU to make that determination? Is it your contention that self referential quantification is social refernetial integrity? Wouldn't that be a referential causality loop?

Should we review some definitions? A farrier is one who shoes horses. I am a farrier because I do shoe horses.

Some definitions for professional >adjective 1 relating to or belonging to a profession. 2 engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amateur. 3 worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent. >noun 1 a professional person. 2 a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.

I am a professional farrier. The US government will back me on this. LOL

As to being fully qualified... Gosh, I don't know that I am fully qualified in all aspects of farriery. Of course, I never said that I was. Are you? Are you going to tell me that taking one test...shoeing one horse, doing a little forgework and one written test somehow makes one "fully qualified". Taking a single test makes one a fully qualified professional farrier? Taking one test can make you a Chicago cab driver. You sure are elevating the farrier trade.

I'd think this was some kind of joke if I didn't know better. The reason this isn't working for you guys is that it can't work. It's backwards. I didn't go to a university for a degree just because I didn't have anything else to do or because I felt that I would be happier with 50K of debt. I did it because it was what was required in order to get the job that I decided I wanted. I didn't go there just for a title (though that's what so much education is being reduced to), I went for the knowledge. They offered more than just a test. You have the tail trying to wag the dog. The guys looking for the work are the ones trying to set the requirements. You want someone to go out and gain the knowledge and the business on their own (4 years experience) and come to you (the Guild) for the title. Once someone has the knowledge and the job (the clients) they're pretty much set and don't need the Guild.

We "rugged individualists" who have managed to get ourselves started doing this, don't need the guilds permission, approval, title or any other such nonsense.
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RE:Testing for other organizations 03 Apr 2007 13:07 #60

  • Mike Ferrara
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Let me try one more way to explain one point I'm trying to make.

When I left school, I wasn't yet an engineer dispite having taken all the classes and passed all the tests. I became an engineer when a company decided that I met THEIR requirements fo the position they needed to fill and hired me to do that job. The degree or any other credential is but one of many possible things the employer might use in making their determination. One company or one position may be willing to take someone right out of school with no practical experience. Another situation might call for experience in specific areas and formal education may be a minor consideration or no consideration at all. There are non-degreed engineers but they are still engineers. The employer determines who is and is not an engineer for them and what qualifications are required in order to begin that relationship and and what is required to maintain it.

Sans any government or other manditory regulations or requirements, one is a farrier when the employer/client determines that the candidate meets their selection criteria. That criteria may include lots of things from formal training, certifications, degrees, work history, reputation, a nice smile, on the spot demonstrated ability, getting along with the clients horses...the clients dogs...and whatever else the client wishes to look at.

Schools compete, in that, the graduates of some tend to be in more demand and earn more than the graduates of others. The Guild, AFA or any other organization can offer whatever cedential they wish. Until that credential proves to be a significant selection criteria, it does absolutely NOTHING to make one a "professional" or to distinguish between the professional and the nonprofessional.

Given the large number of successful non-certified farriers that we have, it isn't they who are unproven. It's these credentials being touted that are unproven. At this point, the burden of proof isn't on all the uncertified farriers making a living shoeing horses to prove they are professionals. The burden of proof is on those claiming that the credential they offer is of some value.
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