Thanks George!

I know I ruffled some feathers and your right it was fun.

If you could give me some info on the Union that would be great.

Thanks, Jamin

Gary_Miller wrote:
Gary, I am Retired Air National Gaurd. Do not get the full retirement benefits until age 60. Unless things have changed.

Does Tri-Care also cover my spouse?

beslagsmed wrote: Absolutely correct. At least in my instance, all ya' gotta' do is show up. I've plenty enough tools to go around and can easily fully outfit anyone who wants to work and learn. Got a big house too and friends, old and new are always welcome.

Rick

jaminkindt wrote: So if one of the aforementioned associations would let you purchase your certification or say purchase one for your dog, we should consider this a good thing? :confused:
Absolutely incorrect. Well, let me expound on that a bit. Will the Guild help you pass your written, as in provide you with the answers to the test questions ahead of time. Of course not. That would make the test of your empirical knowledge a sham. Would Guild members help you with your shoe display? Of course they would. They would help you by offering constructive criticism and when appropriate, praise, for the work you've done. Would a Guild member show you how to make a modification that was required for the shoe display? Of course s/he would. Would a Guild member make the modifications for you so that you could turn the work in as your own? Of course not. Would a Guild member help you prepare for the practical? Of course s/he would. In fact, when I took my practical, I had never worked in coal before. The only forges available for me to work from were coal forges. While the Guild members present were proscribed from helping me trim the feet or forge the shoes, they were not proscribed from offering me some helpful advise on how to manage that coal forge. Think that would be the case elsewhere?While I might have couched it in different terms, the salient term here is aspiring farriers. The Guild wants farriers who already possess the requisite skill, knowledge and ability to pass a rigorous practical field exam. That's why you can't even join the Guild until you have four years of verifiable full time experience. And you will be required to provide that verification before your application is accepted. Compare that to the somewhat "laissez-faire" approach taken by other organizations.Good on you! The opportunities to further your skill and education abound. When you have enough of them, you'll be ready to be a member of the Guild.The help is already there. The Guild practical is about what you do everyday. When that work is sufficient, you'll be ready to take the Guild practical and you won't need any coaching or molycoddling.How could they be? Generally speaking they possess neither the skill nor the ability nor the knowledge to meet the entrance requirements. The Guild has set the bar rather high and IMNTBCHO, it needs to be set even higher, especially on the written exam.

I have, on several occasions, opined to the Guild officers and membership that it is past time to end the grandfathering in of members because of their accomplishments for other farrier organizations. That said, consider this. At this time, there is only one national farrier's association whose credentials are not accepted by the Guild. Maybe you should think on that and wonder why. Or not. No me importa.

Rick

Mr. Burten,
What week can I come and work with you??

Jamin

Jamin,
Welcome.
As you go through life you may find that PC atitudes may hold you back or allow you to be run over.
Some organizations are better than others. To be holier than someone else is a good thing. To try and make everyone nice and equal unjustly raises up the lesser and pulls down the best.
Rick, just a couple of weeks ago traveled hundreds of miles to help Farriers improve, and got good reviews.
Don't look for what you can get, look for a place to give to and help and you will be blown away at what you recive.
Myself and a couple of others have been getting a clinic together every spring, and it's a lot of work and dealing with whineing Farriers sucks. As an orgianizer I get to have dinner before and drinks after with some of the top hands in our trade and that is well worth it. Also doing all this extra work for my fellow Farriers makes me holier than, well, thou art.
Bill

please see post 44. May have missed it due to the feed back coming in so rapidly.

Thanks I did miss it!

Jamin

Phil Armitage wrote: I don't know anything about the gaurd and their retirement program.

Does Tri-Care also cover my spouse? [/QUOTE]Yes. The price I gave is for the entire family.

Hey Phil,
Being in the military as long as you were dont you at least qualify for VA medical?
George

jaminkindt wrote: Any week I'm working or even if I'm not in the field, we can always bend steel and crack the books.

Rick

jaminkindt]I don't want or mean to disrespect or offend any one but...

I think that the Guild's "HOLIER THAN THOU" attitude is putting off alot of farriers that are just getting into this profession.[/QUOTE]We're only putting them off about 4 years. Are you whineing about it? You're asking questions that were already asked and answered in this thread. Try going back to the beginning and reading all of it.I'm thinking you have not paid much attention to what I said about apprenticeship in my previous posts.You're asking questions that were already asked and answered in this thread. Try going back to the beginning and reading all of it.
And what do you have to give back besides your dues? What will be your contribution? At what point will you begin to give something back?

Mike Ferrara wrote: I'm going to use the word "opinion" because you have not stated a logical fact. So, is that your qualified or unqualified opinion? How do you know you're qulified enough to have an opinion on farrier qualifications? At what point in you career did you decide you were qualified to call yourself a professional? Was it the first day you got paid to shoe a horse? Where did you personally (in your own assesment of yourself) cross the line from rookie to professional? What factors determined your evaluation of yourself and to what standards or objectives or achievements did you compare your knowledge and ability? Did you just decide one day to call yourself a farrier, and from that day forward you considered yourself a fully qualified professional? At the point you decided you were a farrier, what qualified YOU to make that determination? Is it your contention that self referential quantification is social refernetial integrity? Wouldn't that be a referential causality loop?

tbloomer wrote: "Opinion" is a word you should use more often.
You're so concerned with names and titles. What is unprofessional about a "rookie"? When I was granted a degree from a university and took a job with a corporation, I was a rookie with no on the job experience, yet I was a professional. Mind you, I hadn't taken merley a single test but many many tests, practicals exams, projects and papers over a period of years.

You want to make farriery a profession more like engineering with a single test? That's total nonsense...in my opinion.
Should we review some definitions? A farrier is one who shoes horses. I am a farrier because I do shoe horses.

Some definitions for professional >adjective 1 relating to or belonging to a profession. 2 engaged in an activity as a paid occupation rather than as an amateur. 3 worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent. >noun 1 a professional person. 2 a person having impressive competence in a particular activity.

I am a professional farrier. The US government will back me on this. LOL

As to being fully qualified... Gosh, I don't know that I am fully qualified in all aspects of farriery. Of course, I never said that I was. Are you? Are you going to tell me that taking one test...shoeing one horse, doing a little forgework and one written test somehow makes one "fully qualified". Taking a single test makes one a fully qualified professional farrier? Taking one test can make you a Chicago cab driver. You sure are elevating the farrier trade.

I'd think this was some kind of joke if I didn't know better. The reason this isn't working for you guys is that it can't work. It's backwards. I didn't go to a university for a degree just because I didn't have anything else to do or because I felt that I would be happier with 50K of debt. I did it because it was what was required in order to get the job that I decided I wanted. I didn't go there just for a title (though that's what so much education is being reduced to), I went for the knowledge. They offered more than just a test. You have the tail trying to wag the dog. The guys looking for the work are the ones trying to set the requirements. You want someone to go out and gain the knowledge and the business on their own (4 years experience) and come to you (the Guild) for the title. Once someone has the knowledge and the job (the clients) they're pretty much set and don't need the Guild.

We "rugged individualists" who have managed to get ourselves started doing this, don't need the guilds permission, approval, title or any other such nonsense.

Let me try one more way to explain one point I'm trying to make.

When I left school, I wasn't yet an engineer dispite having taken all the classes and passed all the tests. I became an engineer when a company decided that I met THEIR requirements fo the position they needed to fill and hired me to do that job. The degree or any other credential is but one of many possible things the employer might use in making their determination. One company or one position may be willing to take someone right out of school with no practical experience. Another situation might call for experience in specific areas and formal education may be a minor consideration or no consideration at all. There are non-degreed engineers but they are still engineers. The employer determines who is and is not an engineer for them and what qualifications are required in order to begin that relationship and and what is required to maintain it.

Sans any government or other manditory regulations or requirements, one is a farrier when the employer/client determines that the candidate meets their selection criteria. That criteria may include lots of things from formal training, certifications, degrees, work history, reputation, a nice smile, on the spot demonstrated ability, getting along with the clients horses...the clients dogs...and whatever else the client wishes to look at.

Schools compete, in that, the graduates of some tend to be in more demand and earn more than the graduates of others. The Guild, AFA or any other organization can offer whatever cedential they wish. Until that credential proves to be a significant selection criteria, it does absolutely NOTHING to make one a "professional" or to distinguish between the professional and the nonprofessional.

Given the large number of successful non-certified farriers that we have, it isn't they who are unproven. It's these credentials being touted that are unproven. At this point, the burden of proof isn't on all the uncertified farriers making a living shoeing horses to prove they are professionals. The burden of proof is on those claiming that the credential they offer is of some value.