QUOTE FROM CRAIG: Next question that you feel that I am being evasive on?
Craig Trnka


Roy Amaral posted the questions...didn't you read them?

Eric,
Three months before the Salt lake convention Cadallic Style was the clothier for the AFA and did the souvenier shop. They announced that they were not coming. The Utah Guild picked up the pieces and sold some items here and there. It was obvious that we needed another clothier. Me being President seemed to be an obvious conflict of interest. There are several members that have embroidery machines like Fran and David Edens, Don Weiland, and several others. The thing about having a portable shop is that the machines are around 20 grand and they don't travel well. Most Embroiderers don't like to move their shops. Bryan finally talked Chris into it knowing that it would look exactly like it is. None the less Chris has given the AFA 10% of everything she does at the convention and off the Website. It's approximately $2,000.00 for the Convention. It's one of those deals that costs about 30 grand to make about 31 grand. Chris enjoys the people and puts here heart and soul into it. I'm sure if the EC decides they can do better they will an if so I hope they treat the next clothier as good as they have treated Chris.
As far as the WCB we don't want any money from the AFA. Period

Craig Trnka

Craig Trnka wrote:
Craig, can you talk about the site for the national competition a little. What's your plan. How does it work now? How will it work with your plan? How many members per year does the wbc need to succeed? And/or how many competitors per competition do you need to be succesful? The question about afa members not being able to go to the convention to compete without going qualifying with the wcb is a good one. Can something not be worked out to let a limited number of afa members allowed in the contest? I'm sure a non wcb would not even get top 25. So you could probably throw the afa a bone for at least a couple of years. No?

" So Brain what are we gonna do tonight?" " The same thing we do every night Pinky. PLOT TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!"

Quote from a short lived politically sarcastic cartoon.
Pinky and The Brain

Does anyone remember what happened when the nail companies decided that they would do us a FAVOR by packing nails by the count instead of by the pound?

Jim

I remember counting the nails in a five pound box of 5CH and putting the bad nails into a coffee can for the fellow that I apprenticed under.

seems like there was 720 or so in a 5# box, it has been too long ago

Jeff,
The point is, that after the fancy packaging, done to make it easier for us, the price of nails almost doubled!

I understood Jim, just reminded me of counting nails.

fairweatherforge wrote:
Eric,
The Way the WCB is going to work is that we have 5 regional contests, Bossier City in April, Durango in June, Dillion MT in Sept. West Springfield Mass. in Nov. and Atlanta in Jan. If the AFA decides they would rather not mess with this we will have the Grand Finale at least 6 weeks away from the convention. I want to compete at the convention as do most all competitors. This will make it so competitors can do both. We will have ten stations that will all be identical. if you have 50 people show up you have 5 go rounds per class. It is amazing how fast the shoes adapt and get better as the go's proceed. The coke is desirable because of the whole elbow thing. All but one of the classes are two man to help with experience. If you are picking a team you should have two man concepts. Its best not to have a volleyball tournament to pick your basketball team. You can go to any contest and win that particular contest. To win the overall aggregate you ac***ulate pionts over the entire year.
If the AFA is in the picture the convention would be the year end. Anybody could compete at the year end and win the convention but if you wanted to be overall or on the Team you would have to ac***ulate points. Competitors could come and compete without having to drag a rig along. Foriegn competitors could have a fighting chance because they would be competing on the same equipment and begging and hoping they would get a good rig.
What is it going to take to make the WCB tick? Public Awareness. Hopefully horseowning public awareness. Is it a pipe dream? I know for a fact not this year. Will it be a pipe dream next year? I'm betting not. What do I want from the AFA? Nothing, just want the nod to succeed and go on if the AFA (the BoD) dosen't believe in this concept. That's it. If your not wanted there why would you want to be there?

Craig Trnka

I see this in the same light as when the Bull Riders started their circuit seperate from the PRCA. Did the PRCA suffer because of it - no. If anything more chances to compete will help the over all farrier profile. Sure there are details to work out, but nothing in this life worth while is for free or easy.

Mikel

Does anyone know why the rules commitee voted down the wcb proposal?

QUOTE FROM CRAIG TRNKA: If the AFA decides they would rather not mess with this we will have the Grand Finale at least 6 weeks away from the convention.

FROM THE WCB PROPOSAL: National Championship – TBD. Will be held in February or March of 2008.

QUOTE FROM CRAIG TRNKA: We will have ten stations that will all be identical. if you have 50 people show up you have 5 go rounds per class. It is amazing how fast the shoes adapt and get better as the go's proceed. The coke is desirable because of the whole elbow thing. All but one of the classes are two man to help with experience. If you are picking a team you should have two man concepts. Its best not to have a volleyball tournament to pick your basketball team. You can go to any contest and win that particular contest. To win the overall aggregate you ac***ulate pionts over the entire year.

Craig,

Please explain how this would work with the AFAs class schedule and how many hours of competition it would take to run through the AFAs 65 +/- competitors.

QUOTE FROM CRAIG TRNKA: If the AFA is in the picture the convention would be the year end. Anybody could compete at the year end and win the convention but if you wanted to be overall or on the Team you would have to ac***ulate points. Competitors could come and compete without having to drag a rig along. Foriegn competitors could have a fighting chance because they would be competing on the same equipment and begging and hoping they would get a good rig.

FROM THE WCB PROPOSAL: At the completion of the regional qualifiers, the cut will be made and 40 competitors will be announced to compete at the National Championship. There will be approximately 15 lottery spots for foreign competitors to keep the international involvement in the year end. The points will carry over into the National Championship and the classes at the National Championship will be worth double points to create added excitement. A foreign competitor could win all the classes at the National Championship but would unlikely win the year end award unless they made it to the regional contests. Foreign competitors would only be allowed to compete at the National Championship if they were living outside of the USA.

Craig,

These two statements in bold seem to be in conflict. Could you please explain?

If in fact ANYONE CAN COMPETE….Does this mean that the winner of the convention would not be on the team if he/she was not a WCB Competitor and had not acc**ulated points, even though, hypothetically at this point, he made the best shoes and beat the “best” WCB competitors? If this is the case, doesn’t this mean competitors will be forced to be WCB members if they want a shot at a place on the AFA Team…is this correct?


QUOTE FROM CRAIG TRNKA: What do I want from the AFA? Nothing.

FROM THE WCB PROPOSAL: Sponsorship: WCB will seek sponsorship monies for the competition to increase the purse and help offset the costs. AFA’s current contracts for competition sponsorship end in 2007 so the timing of transition would create no issues.

Craig,

If you don’t want “nothing”, than why are you taking away sponsorship money from the AFA? Aren’t you going to ask the current sponsors to back the WCB? Isn’t this taking money away from the AFA? Furthermore, the questions posed regarding the allocation of sponsorship money by the WCB remain unanswered. Kindly explain, for example, if get a $100,000 in sponsorship money how this will be allocated. How much will go to Administrative Costs, Advertising & Promotions, Prize Money, Transpotation, Staffing, Insurance, etc…

AndrewCJF in gray, deletia

Please explain how this would work with the AFAs class schedule and how many hours of competition it would take to run through the AFAs 65 +/- competitors.

Your argument presumes the need or desirability of the AFA's having and/or maintaining control of any form, sort, or fashion of forging/shoeing contest when none has been demonstrated existent. The argument that "we've always had a contest" is specious; in reality, there's nothing sacrosanct about a traditional error, it's just an error that's been made many times. Have you asked yourself if the AFA really needs a forging/shoeing contest? A "shoeing team"? If you have, please explain what for? Will aping our cousins on the Small Islands improve the quality of farriery in this country? (Does anyone know anyone in this country who's ever nailed on a roadster shoe?) Have you considered that the AFA's participation/sponsorship of such contests might actually be a bad idea because it tells the public we're more interested in contesting than we are in informing them of the benefits of our certification program? That any contest's educational value, when compared to other hands-on formats, is close to zero? That the AFA's fiscal and human resources could be much better used for projects of demonstrably greater benefit to its membership as a whole as well as farriery in this country? No disrespect intended to any of the participants, but the contest and the shoeing team it spawns are utterly meaningless to anyone but those folks to whom making a great roadster shoe is akin to nirvana - the horse owning public doesn't give a damn.

Why is it necessary for the AFA to waste any more money on forging/shoeing contests when we have a group ready and willing to take on that responsibility? If they can do so and make a profit, good on 'em - we've already effectively demonstrated that we can't.

How about spending the money we've been wasting on contests and spending it on ads in slick rags touting the AFA's certification program? Right now, thanks to our misplaced priorities, the program is the best kept secret in US horsedom, but if the public were made aware of it to the point of creating a demand for certified farriers, it could of great benefit to horse owners, farriers, and eventually have a positive impact on the quality of farriery in this country.

As I see it, if we have the resources for one or the other, on one hand, we can have a positive impact on the industry; on the other, we can have a great roadster shoe that nobody will ever nail on.

Helluva choice.

I might be mistaking but I think that is called competition. I think that is called sponsors putting their monies where the sponsors will have the largest targeted market to prose their wares.
Monies are earned and not handed out because it's always been "done that way". Competition benefits all. It makes one pay more attention to detail, to change and ways of doing business. If a business/organization doesn't evolve with it's practices-organizational, educational and instructional outlooks; the business goes under or remains at or below status qua.

Hell, what do I know...........

AndrewCJF wrote: Come on Andrew you know better. You know that the date in the proposal is based on the proposal being accepted.

If I was in charge of the WCB. I would just tell the AFA to forget the whole deal. And I would schedule our finals on the same date, in the same town, and on the same block as the AFA convention. And form my own team. I would call it the North America Team.

Now how many competitors do you think the AFA would have?
What kind of teamwould come from the AFA contest?

However, the WCB does not want to do this to the AFA. Because, they still believe in and support the AFA.
AndrewCJF wrote: The number in the proposal is because the AFA made a statement that they would have to limit the number at the 2008 convetion due to the size of the venue where the contest would be held.

Andrew
Tell us how the AFA was gooing to choose those who compete if there is a limit? Oh yea, I forgot it would be based on who sends in their registration form first. Since there is no other way to decide.

Gee, the WCB has already determined how to choose the 40. By holding qualifirers through out the year.
AndrewCJF wrote: Who do you want on the team. Joe Smuck who lucked out in one competition, or his brother who went through several qualifiers and proved that he could consistently make good shoe any time.
AndrewCJF wrote:
Which leads us to Andrews next question in the proposal.

• Are non-members of the WCB allowed to compete at their sanctioned events?

I might add this is a good question and one only the WCB can answer.

Of course it would make sense to me that one would have to be a member of the WCB to compete. Just like one has to be a member of the PRCA, NFL, NBA, ect.. I don't have a problem with one haveing to be part of an organization to enter the competitions or other benifits that one may derive from being a member.

Of course the AFA does not ether. Remember the change to the certification program last fall.
AndrewCJF wrote: Makes since that if the WCB is going run the competition, and the contract with the AFA are going to expire. That now would be a good time to change over and bring the sponsers a long as well.
AndrewCJF wrote: Not at all it just moving money that is set aside by an organization for the competition to another organization who is running the competition. Its the same competition that a company is sponsering with the same money. After all the AFA does not make any money from the competition. If I remember correctly they spend some of their own as well.
Think of what would be save by the AFA to be used else where. Like education.
AndrewCJF wrote: Does it matter where the money goes that a sponser gives an organization to run an event as long as it goes to the event. I don't believe it important or necessary for the WCB to share with the AFA where the money goes as long as the competition is held to the same or higher standerds as the current competition.

After all the AFa could not even tell you where the money is spent!