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Poll: Should the AFA turn the national championship and team selection over to the WCB?

es 20 28.2%
o 24 33.8%
eed more information 17 23.9%
on\'t care 10 14.1%
Total number of voters: 43 ( eddiemarcus37 ) See more
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TOPIC: WCB proposal to the AFA

RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 03:42 #31

  • AndrewCJF
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QUOTE BY BS HORSESHOEING: Andrew, maybe you should write up a counter proposal or form a committee to do so instead of busting this one up with questions asked to cut down the WCB. I'm not a member of the WCB so don't go there, but you dang sure seem to hate this deal with a passion.

Ben,

If you read my previous comments you'd have seen I think that the WCB is a wonderful idea and should really serve to educate competitors and farriers.

The questions I have asked, which no one has answered to date, need to be asked by members of the AFA who will ultimately have a voice in this decision. It is my responsibility as a member of the EC and to the membership to ask these questions, as it is to all the Board members, to know fully the answers to these and their own concerns. This is a major unsolicited proposal concerning a key asset of the AFA and its membership. This is an AFA contest, it belongs to you and me, the members! Why should we turn the contest over to anyone without full knowledge of their intentions, full disclosure of their financial standing and full fiscal accountability?

Once we start giving away assets...which one is next?

Why can't the WCB run its qualifiers and let the AFA run its own national championship and the WCB apply points therein. Why is it necessary for the WCB to have control of the AFA contest? I am missing the interlocking part. Why is it necessary for the WCB to have control of the AFA contest?

Any negativity you are reading into my questions is through your own interpretation.

Andrew.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 03:44 #32

  • Gary_Miller
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
I said if this proposal doesn't work for the AFA, why not study it with a committee and write a counter proposal and see what happens.
This is exactly what the BOD did formed a committee. The problem there are some who think it was wrong for the WCB Chapter to make the motion and did not like those who was suggested by the motion to be on the committee. However, the WCB said they did not care who was on the committe and gave the members of the BOD a chance to change the members. No one suggested any change. The motion was past and the committee formed.

So now they have to fight it some other way.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 04:17 #33

  • Gary_Miller
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AndrewCJF wrote:
The questions I have asked, which no one has answered to date, need to be asked by members of the AFA who will ultimately have a voice in this decision.
Some of you questions have no relivance to the proposal. They seem to be more agrementive than searcing for answers.AndrewCJF wrote:
It is my responsibility as a member of the EC and to the membership to ask these questions, as it is to all the Board members, to know fully the answers to these and their own concerns.
I commend you for doing your job. Thank YouAndrewCJF wrote:
This is a major unsolicited proposal concerning a key asset of the AFA and its membership. This is an AFA contest, it belongs to you and me, the members!
I will remind you again and will keep remindng you until you fully understand. The WCB is a chapter of the AFA. They hold a postion on the BOD. They have a right and a responsability to propose, suggest, give input, and vote for or against anything that may seem benifical or not benifical to the AFA.
They do not have to wait for a solicitation.AndrewCJF wrote:
Why should we turn the contest over to anyone without full knowledge of their intentions, full disclosure of their financial standing and full fiscal accountability?
The WCB has stated their intentions very clearly. As for the financial standing and fiscal accountability. It does not pertain to the issue so therefore does not need to be disclosed. Its no ones buisness but their own organizations. Well maybe the IRS as well!!!! :D
AndrewCJF wrote:
Once we start giving away assets...which one is next?
How is the contest an asset? What value does it have? It seems to be more of a liability.AndrewCJF wrote:
Why can't the WCB run its qualifiers and let the AFA run its own national championship and the WCB apply points therein.
They can and could if the want. However they believe in the AFA and the formate of their contests that they want to use it for all their contest. They also think the AFA contest to be the best place for the national finals. They could just go out and have thier own finals in the same town as the AFA convention at the same time and choose a team. What would happen to the AFA contest if they did the. I'll help you out. It would die.

However when I suggested this to Craig he made it clear that the AFA is important to the members of the WCB and they do not want to do that. Even though they could.AndrewCJF wrote:
Why is it necessary for the WCB to have control of the AFA contest? I am missing the interlocking part. Why is it necessary for the WCB to have control of the AFA contest?
They don't want to control it just take over the responsability of making it happen. turn it into a clear national final competition where you have to earn your right to be there.
AndrewCJF wrote:
Any negativity you are reading into my questions is through your own interpretation.
I'm sorry Andrew. But you questions are full of negativity. That show true animosity against the WCB and their formate. And I believe it has to do with those the leaders of the WCB.

Andrew

Never the less I promised you answers to you questions. I will get them for you. However it will take some time so be patient.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 04:26 #34

  • T.N. Trosin
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You have to understand why I am staying out of this. I am on the afore mentioned committee and being schooled to be impartial until the facts of the matter are in, I won't address specific sides, but there were a few things that need to be answered in my mind
IRNWKR_2 wrote:
I still don't understand how the proposal from the WCB was moved off of the agenda for the BOD meeting into the EC hands?
Craig Trnka wrote:
As of right now the WCB is a chapter, and as a chapter we can make a motion at the BoD. Think about this for a second if your a chapter. You want to make a change (Boy that's a nasty word) and the EC thinks that it is heading in the wrong direction

Currently this is in no ones hands except the Ad-Hoc committee that was apointed by the board which has yet to meet. I admit that the EC has discussed this issue, but has not and will not take any specific action on this issue.

Gary_Miller wrote:
So now they have to fight it some other way.

No one is fighting anything at this point. The President-Elect has some very strong opinions on this issue I will grant you, but he does raise some of that questions that have been asked of him me and while I can't speek for the rest of the EC or the committee I'm sure some of them have been contacted about this as well.

As to Mr. Stovall's (and anybody else's) point about compitions not being an educational experiance, I have to agree with Craig but probably for differnt reasons. I personally have learned quite abit about myself, my strengths and weeknesses from competing eventhough I don't compete as much as others. I try to get in the pen every once in a while just to see how i am doing. I have seen marvolus things at compitions such as the branch of a shoe comming together or a dimond caulk appearing from what once was an orange blob of steel. You can get something out of everything even if you disagree with it.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 04:58 #35

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Andrew, I read and interpret pretty well. I learned it very well in college while becoming a teacher. Your questions as listed in Roy's post containing the proposal were very negative. There were some very poiniant and pertinant questions, I will give you that. I understand that this is how things need to be done, but your tone is giving this whole thing a very negative feel. It looks and sounds as if you have thrown up a wall and can't see around it no matter what the answers to your questions come back as.

You seem to feel that the WCB is trying to take over the AFA. You have an accusing tone that they are going to run off with the contest and hide it from the AFA. What I read is that they want to be a part of it, take the pressure off the AFA, and provide a great contest. I don't see that they are trying to make money and take it from us, steal the competition, or push the AFA out. It sounds as if they want to work in conjunction with us and make it the greatest competition of each year.

As for the AFA running this and doing a great job, I have to question that since it's such a burden financially and physically and excludes the participants from the educational part of the convention. If it stays this way, some will always miss out on education. Within the WBC proposed system, the participants will have a chance to go to the lectures at some point, how can that be a bad thing? They can do both instead of being limited to just one. Why make them choose. That hurts the picking of the team to if some one who could be the best decides not to compete and go learn something new. Don't fight this so hard and just stonewall it, work through it and find a way to make it work if possible. If you are to be a true good leader, you have to leave personal opinion out as much as possible, I don't think you have done that here. JMO. Do what's best for the AFA and the farrier industry, not just a few.
Ben Sturman
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Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 07:43 #36

  • Jaye Perry
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“It is reported that we loose about 5K every year on our contest, If this is a budgeting issue then it is sad since we have been doing this for 30 years?”
Jason- Alabama

"Liars figure and figures lie". The educational value of the competition to the AFA is well worth $5,000 and more; a good investment for a not-for-profit company. Ask those who figure we lose $5K on the contest just how much we lose on the lectures....?
Andrew- New York

“I guess you could call me a Liar but if the WCB could cut down costs with Fire Marshalls, Propane, and other expenses that would still be a savings to the AFA, and the AFA would still have a kick #@$# contest with a more educational venue. The savings come from outsourcing not from taking away the venue.”
Craig- New Mexico

“It not about doing buisness.”
Gary-Idaho

Sez who? A skeptic like myself might point out that $5K will buy a few ads in slick rags touting the AFA's certification program - and those ads would reach quite a few folks who are unaware of the AFA's certification program and might actually be of some benefit to both farriers and John Q………It's a fiscal heatsink that has no redeeming value to the horseowning public or the vast majority of farriers who serve them.”
Mr. Tom- Texas

“…if someone comes up with an idea that changes things for the better and all your going to do is fight those ideas, how the heck are we going to move forward and get better? “
Ben- Arizona

“The issue with equipment is a problem. Hauling your rig thousands of miles to compete is unreasonable. Haveing an anvil and forge available and enableing competitors to travel by flight is a great idea. Why can't the AFA do this?... understand Fire Marshalls place a lot of restrictions on the use of gas and coal forges and the cost is pretty high. Is this a big issue?”
Phil- Maine

“We don't have to bicker amongst our selves, there are bigger problems at the door.”
Craig-New Mexico

“Why should we turn the contest over to anyone without full knowledge of their intentions, full disclosure of their financial standing and full fiscal accountability? …
Once we start giving away assets...which one is next?”
Andrew-New York

“How is the contest an asset? What value does it have? It seems to be more of a liability”
Gary- Idaho

Per the assertained mentioned:
Nonprofit Organization
Group, institution, or corporation formed for the purpose of providing goods and services under a policy where no individual (e.g., stockholder, trustee) will share in any profits or losses of the organization. Profit is not the primary goal of nonprofit entities. Profit may develop, however, under a different name (e.g., surplus, increase in fund balance). Assets are typically provided by sources that do not expect repayment or economic return. Usually, there are restrictions on resources obtained.

If there is a loss of revenue in any organization/business there inlays a burden for the org/business to re-coup lost revenue. Thus, increase of the fees to it supporters. I.E.- members, industry affliates and so forth. Thus increase in fees is passed to and upon the supporters and non-supporters.

Solution:

WC Blacksmith(for profit organization) could hold it's finals at the AFA (non-profit organization) convention. This could be done in the way of pay-per-view/participation. If ones want to compete-they pay. If one wants to watch- they pay. This provides profit for the For profit organization.
The AFA provides it's conventional venue(s) for a small percentage of the profit-thus providing a "so called" educational venue" for it's mandated status. This small percentage may cover insurance liabilities.

So the WCB gains a profit- The AFA covers it's liability and provides another educational venue per mandate. Thus the AFA doesn't lose monies or gain monies, but covers it's a s s. The WCB gains an audience to promote their wares.

The structure is two identities with different business agendas, thus one gains a profit and one doesn't lose revenue to be made up with increased fees. The only hitch is the WCB is a chapter of the AFA.

This negates the senario due to insurance liabilities;cannot treat the WCB and the AFA as two seperate and different indenties. Someone wasn't thinking with their brains but with their loyalties.:rolleyes:

It maybe to simplistic, it maybe lost in politics/legalities and it maybe to much for the "chest beaters".
Hell, what do I know, .................


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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 08:08 #37

  • smitty88
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dont know if this relevant to all of this
but we had a compitition in the RDS Dublin for a long time

the same men were doing the grafting year in year out
keeping this show on the road

i think they staged one of the first Internationals here
i even remember the USA over

then the compitition came to a close
well i have to tell you it was the worse thing that ever happened

to the farrier circle over here
my feeling would be if at all keep it going

you wil always have these lads that dont want compititions
say its a waste of this and that

dosent matter who is running it keep it going
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 08:42 #38

  • Jaye Perry
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Trosin-You have to understand .....As to Mr. Stovall's (and anybody else's) point about compitions not being an educational experiance.......
Education is in the eyes of the beholders. Priorities are where one puts them. If one wants to make slick shoes so be it. If want wants to keep horses sound and customers happy so be it. It's what one wants from the vast amounts of information provided in and by different venues.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 10:43 #39

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Good Morning Gentlemen,

After reading all of your posts and being accused of negativity and irrelevance I went back through and re-read the WCBs proposals and the questions I have asked. I cannot for the life of me see how any one in good conscious could consider this proposal without having full in-depth, detailed answers to all these questions. So in the spirit of good will and cooperation perhaps you all could humor me and just factually answer my questions and concerns. Instead of accusing me, educate me with the facts.

Andrew
.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 11:01 #40

  • Jaye Perry
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AndrewCJF-Good Morning Gentlemen,...
Probably need to change greetings to Farriers. If you leave the Ladies out in the introductions their wrath is discernible!;)

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 11:02 #41

  • AndrewCJF
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Craig,

Your Chief Planning and Operations Officer, Jill Ballard, is no longer listed as a contact on the WCB website. Neither is the WCB Chief FInancial Officer, Kyle Ballard. Has there been a personnel change? Are Kyle and Jill still actively involved in the WCB? I thought they were principles.

Please update.

Thanks, Andrew
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 11:29 #42

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JAYES QUOTE: Probably need to change greetings to Farriers. If you leave the Ladies out in the introductions their wrath is discernible!

Jaye,

Without a lady having posted...if I wrote ladies some horseshoer might take offense to it. And I sure don't want to make anybody mad! :eek:


Andrew.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 11:36 #43

  • J.H. shoeing
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Andrew

I have only offered to exlpain how you have offended me, face to face. Instead of here on the internet or over the phone. But maybe your conscience is bothering you.

Would you rather here my complaints face to face or are you worried that you might have to actually deal with something then?
Jeff Holder

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 11:38 #44

  • Jaye Perry
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AndrewCJF wrote:
JAYES QUOTE: Probably need to change greetings to Farriers. If you leave the Ladies out in the introductions their wrath is discernible!

Jaye,

Without a lady having posted...if I wrote ladies some horseshoer might take offense to it. And I sure don't want to make anybody mad! :eek:

Andrew.
Yes seeing that the men folk posted, it's the Lurkers(men, women and others) that scan the threads also. Just a reminder of inclusion.:)
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 11:44 #45

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J.H. shoeing wrote:
Andrew

I have only offered to exlpain how you have offended me, face to face. Instead of here on the internet or over the phone. But maybe your conscience is bothering you.

Would you rather here my complaints face to face or are you worried that you might have to actually deal with something then?
"Don't type angry!!!!!",
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