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Poll: Should the AFA turn the national championship and team selection over to the WCB?

es 20 28.2%
o 24 33.8%
eed more information 17 23.9%
on\'t care 10 14.1%
Total number of voters: 43 ( eddiemarcus37 ) See more
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TOPIC: WCB proposal to the AFA

RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 12 Apr 2007 14:11 #226

  • Gary_Miller
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As promised here are the next questions (from page 4 & 5) asked by Andrew, along with my comments. As always I'm sure the WCB will make corrections if necessary.FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
National Championship – TBD. Will be held in February or March of 2008.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• The AFA already has a contest set for this time period.
Need I remind you that the proposal is for AFA Chapter WCB to take responsability of conducting the National Championship at the AFA convention.AndrewCJF wrote:
• Is the WCB planning to use these dates to try to force the AFA into an agreement by threatening to run a WCB event at the same time and siphon off competitors from the AFA contest?
I talked with Craig this is not the intent of the WCB at all. The WCB being a AFA Chapter belive in and support the AFA. The WCB invisions the current National Championship held at the AFA convention to be the best place for their finals. They don't want to stop it just change the process slightly.

OTH, If it were left to me. Due to the attitude and close mindness of some in the AFA (i.e. The Rule Committee) I would hold the WCBs Finals, in the same town and at the sametime as the AFA National Championship select a WCB team and let the competitors make a choice of which venue to attend.

What do you think would happen?AndrewCJF wrote:
• Will the WCB take the National Championships name from the AFA like it took the World Championship name from the Calgary Stampede? Even though the name has a long association with a venue other than a WCB event? Will this lack of integrity repeat itself?
Only if the AFA agreed to the WCB proposal.
The Calgary things already been addressed.AndrewCJF wrote:
• If competitors agree that the AFA already lays claim to the best time slot for a national championship WHY does the WCB want to take that away from the AFA?
The WCB does not want to take anything away from the AFA. As a chapter of the AFA they are just proposing a procedure change on who and how the event id ran. The WCB feels the venue of the AFA convention is the best place for their finals, and the same people who are competing in the WCBs contests throughout the year are the same who compete at the AFA National Championship.AndrewCJF wrote:
• Do not several chapters of the AFA already hold contests that could be used as regional qualifiers?
I know some chapters hold contest. However, without alot of organizing by the AFA these contests would not be good qualifiers for the national Championship. However, the organization and purpose of the, WCB Chapter of the AFA, has focused on designing contests that make great qualifiers for the National Championship held durning the AFA convention.AndrewCJF wrote:
• Why limit stations to ONLY ten at a time? Why not 20?
Because this is how the WCB has organized the contests. The number could have been any amout. You have to draw the line somewhere. And since the WCB supplies everything except hand tools it saves on expenses. It also leaves room to expand if the need should arise.AndrewCJF wrote:
• WHY limit to COKE forges only?
Even I a, two year member of the AFA, knows that a COKE forge fire is better than propane fire. Besides it what the WCB choose to supply. Also COKE fires are used in Calgary and Competitions in England. Just makes sense.AndrewCJF wrote:
• Time is a factor to run successful events.
Your right I'm sure the WCB has factored in time and may even have to make some adjustments as the WCB contests evolve. I'm sure they can handle this.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 13 Apr 2007 01:27 #227

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Gary,
I think that I agree along the lines of just about everything you stated. Very well put for only a 2 year member. Your answers sound as though you have gone to a clinic recently with a seasoned, salty horseshoer?
The only thing that I would add is that the reason we have set up our season the same as the AFA convention is because late winter is when things are generally not so hectic for farriers. No need to reinvnet the wheel. Calgary is a hard contest to practice for because it is in a fast and furious month for life much less a farrier practice.

Craig
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 13 Apr 2007 02:54 #228

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Craig Trnka wrote:
Your answers sound as though you have gone to a clinic recently with a seasoned, salty horseshoer?
World Champion Blacksmith and a member of the WCB Association.

Two full days with Shane Carter working in the forge. I burnt up 9 gallons of propane making keg shoe mods and handmade shoes. It was also interesting to listen and watch Shane work with the three guys in our association who are preparing to go to the up comming compitition. It was a real learning experiance and gave me the boost I needed to get into the forge and work on my shoe display so I can test next year.

I have learned alot from all the clinics I have gone to over the last two years. We have really had some good clinic with guys like Dave Ducket, Craig Trinka, Jim Quick, and now Shane Carter. It was really educational to go to these clinics and an honor to met such men. They all left me feeling like we were the best of friends and I could count on them to help me anytime I needed it.

Thank You
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 13 Apr 2007 17:36 #229

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FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
Rules
The AFA’s Guidelines for Evaluating Farrier Competitions would be used at World Championship Blacksmiths competitions.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Enforced by whom?
How about the judges just like any other competition.FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
Ranking
WCB has created a ranking system that will be based on a competitor’s experience level. The ranking system will be structured as follows:

#1 rank – Entry-level competitor who is just starting out and has never won a division one competition.

#2 rank - Competitor who has never competed in an open division contest.

#3 rank - Competitor who has competed in an open division contest but never won in this division.

#4 rank - Competitor who has won an open division contest.

Once assigned to a rank, competitors will keep that rank for the entire season. If the competitor meets the criteria for the next rank, he or she will have the option of keeping the current rank through the remainder of the current season or moving up. Each season, competitor’s records will be reviewed and new rankings will be assigned.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• By whom?
I can only suppose that this would be done by the administrative staff and directors of the WCB.AndrewCJF wrote:
• Under what guidelines?
Using the above guidelines and ranking system.FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
Each individual competitor will be competing with competitors of different ranks at the same time in go-rounds. For the given class, the competitor will only be competing against those in your assigned rank for incentive prizes. However, in terms of the points competitors ac***ulate toward the overall season, each will be competing against
competitors of all rankings for the chance to compete in the National Championship.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Does this now mean if an agreement is reached with the AFA that competitors who used to freely compete at the AFA contest as a single annual event now have to pay to join the WCB, pay travel and entry fees to WCB qualifying events in the hope of competing at the AFA contest?
Yes. But why is this any diffrent from what the AFA does. With the exception of not having to qualify. Competors have to be a member of the AFA or pay higher fees equal to AFA membership, they have to pay travel and entry fees as well. And lets not forget that travel to the AFA contest it harder as the competitor has to haul all his equipment with him. As well as pay for propane.

With the WCB all the competitor has to do is get himself and his hand tools to the competition pay his fees. Everything is included in the entry fee no hidden or extra costs. No having to miss alot of work for travel. Jump on a plane the day before and return the day after the competition.AndrewCJF wrote:
• This seems exclusionary to the farrier who comes to the AFA Convention and wishes to compete during the time he/she is already away for the convention.
I would guess that not many farriers compete at the convention just because they are already there. Those who compete at the convetion competition go there just to compete. And I would guess that if you looked at a list of competitors at the convention you would find that they are also members of the WCB and are also make up a large portion of the 53 competitors at the up and comming competition in Bossier City, LA.

As for excusion. Why is this any diffrent than other things where individuals are excluded due to qualifications.

Case in point: I can't run for the AFA BOD this year due to the exclusion that I have not been a member of the BOD or a Committee Chair. Yet I keep being told to get involved.AndrewCJF wrote:
• If this is the case, it is in contradiction to the mission of the AFA.
Lets see the AFA mission statement is:

Mission of the AFA
“To further the professional development of farriers, to provide leadership and resources for the benefit of the farrier industry, and to improve the welfare of the horse through continuing farrier education.”

Please explane how you see this as a contradiction?

I don't see anything in the mission statement that talks about the AFA running a competion.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Apr 2007 03:24 #230

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Gary,
You have been chewing on this for awhile. Where is Andrew? All your points again are along the same lines as we explain to Pat Gallahan (The newly appointed chair to this committee) Thanks for putting all these points in here. Texmexgirl didn't enter but there is still hope for her to show to just watch.

Craig
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Apr 2007 04:59 #231

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I haven't posted much on this subject, but have read the whole. So far Andrew needs to come up with some valid reasons for the AFA not to accept the WCB proposal. I have to commend Gary for taking the proposal appart, along with Andrew's replys so we can see question for question. For me this is a case of "well my granddaddy did it this way" type attitude. Nothing ever progresses unless a step forward is taken. If the WCB is a chapter of the AFA, then how is the competition being taken away from the AFA? It is just letting one of its chapters run the competition, thus allowing the AFA staff and leadership focus on other things.

Mikel
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Apr 2007 04:36 #232

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FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
There will be approximately 15 lottery spots for foreign competitors to keep the international involvement in the year end.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• WHY, when the WCB claims to be all about a national contest?
In order to keep the tradition of reaching out and involving other countries. Just like they reach out and involve us in their competitions.AndrewCJF wrote:
• If the goal is to recognize a national Champion from the USA why keep ANY USA people out to save slots for international competitors?
No one is keeping anyone out. According to the proposal there will be 40 (I understand this number is not firm) slots at the national competition with an addtional 15 for our foreign brother/sisters. If you qualify then you compete. If your an foreign competitor then you compete for one of the lottery spots.AndrewCJF wrote:
The AFA has never turned away anyone wishing to compete!
The WCB is not turning anyone away just changing how you get to compete at the national competition. If you qualify base on the other competitions then you get to compete at the national.FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
The points will carry over into the National Championship and the classes at the NationalChampionship will be worth double points to create added excitement.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Could this system also end up with one contest deciding the national champion?
It could but its not likely given the number of competitors who have signed up for the first competition.FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
A foreign competitor could win all the classes at the National Championship but would unlikely win the year end award unless they made it to the regional contests. Foreign competitors would only be allowed to compete at the National Championship if they were living outside of the USA.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Is there a guarantee that the national Champion will be from the USA and be an AFA member?
No guarantee here. A foreign competitor who comes to all the competition and qualifies for the natioinal competition (NC) could win the title of national champion. With the exception of having to qualify for the NC I don't think this is any diffrent than it is now. Or is it?AndrewCJF wrote:
• Will being a CJF still be a requirement?
If your talking about the team the answer would be yes since the WCB wants to play by the AFA rules. Although I think this is exclusionary.FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
World Championship Blacksmiths would encourage the Rules Committee Chair, or a designated member of the Rules Committee, to be present at each sanctioned competition.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Will the WCB pay this individual for his/her time and services?
This would have to be negotiated between the AFA and the WCB. Thats why there was a committee formed.FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
This individual would not be required to be present. If present, this individual would be allowed to monitor and track results side by side with WCB. This individual would not be allowed to question the judge’s decisions, but would be allowed to be present during scoring, tracking, and calculation of scores to help ensure accuracy, accountability, and give further credibility to both organizations regarding the scoring processes.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• The WCB wants to use the AFA standards but not enforced by the Rules Committee.
Andrew you need to reread the proposal. I has already been said that the competions are being ran using The AFA’s Guidelines for Evaluating Farrier Competitions which if I remember correctly are set by the rules committee. The rules once set are to be inforced by the judge not some individual from the rules committee. Decisions of the judge is final in all competions.AndrewCJF wrote:
Is it no longer the AFA’s Contest?
Why does the AFA need a contest? Where do contests fit in the AFA Mission Statement?AndrewCJF wrote:
• The AFA’s personnel are the assurance of integrity, accuracy and accountability.
Are you stating that the WCB's personnel are not?
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Apr 2007 15:09 #233

  • Craig Trnka
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Gary,
You are doing a great job of picking the whole concept piece by piece. You would think that Andrew and Dave would want you to be on the committee.
The one thing that keeps popping up is the word "Proposal" When a new customer calls you and wants you to shoe their horse you start off the conversation in a proposal type situation to see if the both of you are even interested in talking about money and when you can get there.
It would be almost impossible to make a contract that would suit everyone but many companys do what is called a (MOU) memorandum of Understanding. This would be a very logical way to move forward without have waste of money or time. These operating agreements are used all the time between all types of large companies. Just google MOU and you can see.

Just one more note is that we do not want to limit the amount of competitors that compete at the national finals. The reason that came to be is that it was originally set up to be at the convention center at the Lexington convention. The space was limited to 40 competitors, since then they are going to bus out to the Horsepark. Last two times I've been out there I had coffee popsicles in about 30 minutes.

Craig
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Apr 2007 19:43 #234

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Craig Trnka wrote:
Gary,
You are doing a great job of picking the whole concept piece by piece. You would think that Andrew and Dave would want you to be on the committee.
All they have to do is ask. Of course I'm only a two year AFA member with no certification. So whats the chance of that happening in todays AFA?Craig Trnka wrote:
The one thing that keeps popping up is the word "Proposal" When a new customer calls you and wants you to shoe their horse you start off the conversation in a proposal type situation to see if the both of you are even interested in talking about money and when you can get there.
It would be almost impossible to make a contract that would suit everyone but many companys do what is called a (MOU) memorandum of Understanding. This would be a very logical way to move forward without have waste of money or time. These operating agreements are used all the time between all types of large companies. Just google MOU and you can see.
The problem is the proposal has to be excepted before an MOU can be drafted. Its my understanding the committee was formed to discuss the concept put forth in the proposel and get input from both sides. Not necessarly an agrement. Then the committee would put togeather a presentation for the BOD that covers both the pro's and con's of the issue. Then the BOD would vote to ether accept or reject the proposal. The out come of vote would then dictate the next step. Do nothing or draft a MOU. Its really quite simple when you really get down to it.
Craig Trnka wrote:
Just one more note is that we do not want to limit the amount of competitors that compete at the national finals. The reason that came to be is that it was originally set up to be at the convention center at the Lexington convention. The space was limited to 40 competitors, since then they are going to bus out to the Horsepark. Last two times I've been out there I had coffee popsicles in about 30 minutes.
Great that solves one issue Andrew has. Further more with the concept/formate of the WCB there would be no reason for the competion to be moved to a larger venue. Due to there only being 10 competitors competing at one time.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 19 Apr 2007 15:31 #235

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FROM PROPOSAL]
Selection of American Farrier’s Team
WCB would provide annual competition results of all qualifiers and the national
championship to the AFA for the selection of the team. AFA would maintain ownership and responsibility for the American Farrier’s Team.[/QUOTE]

AndrewCJF wrote:
• The AFA already has a selection process for the AFT that has worked well in selecting past team members.
Since I as a AFA member do not have easy access to the information on selecting the team. I can't comment on this.

My best guess would be that the process proposed is not much diffrent than the current process. Just a little more data to use in the selection.

My question would be. What is best a team where members are selected based on their placings at one competition, or a team where members are selected base on their placings over several competitions.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Again, does this now mean if an agreement is reached with the AFA that competitors who used to freely compete at the AFA contest as a single annual event now have to pay to join the WCB, pay travel and entry fees to WCB qualifying events in the hope of competing at the AFA contest? This seems exclusionary to the farrier who comes to the AFA Convention and wishes to compete during the time he/she is already away for the convention.
Already been answered.
FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
Selection of Judges
World Championship Blacksmiths will select and provide 1 judge for each competition and 2 judges for the National Championship. WCB proposes the following judges (not yet confirmed) for the 2007 Season.
Bossier City, LA – Shayne Carter, CJF
Durango, CO – Jason Smith, CJF
Dillon, MT – Bob Mederos, CJF
W Springfield, MA – Billy Crothers, AWCF
Atlanta, GA – Roy Bloom, CJF
National Championship – Myron McLane, CJF wrote:
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Selection of judges should be done by the AFA rules committee for an AFA contest.
Ok, select away. I don't think it matters to the WCB who judges the contest. Just as long as it judged fairly.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Is it appropriate that a principle in the WCB be named a judge with so much potential prize money at stake?
What are you saying here that some one (Craig to be exact) is dishonest and may fix the results? I'm sure that Craig would rather be competing.

Come on Andrew, growup, you know better.
FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
Contest Staffing
WCB will provide staff for each competition.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Will the WCB staff be totally insured? Including, but not limited to Workmen’s Compensation, liability and indemnification of the AFA against ANY action resulting from any incident occurring involving the WCB staff producing an AFA named event?
I'm have to assume that the WCB are following all the laws pertaining to personel matters and liabilities.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 20 Apr 2007 18:05 #236

I'm suprised about all of the responses about this issue. I'm a member of both the AFA and the WCB that likes to try to keep things simple.
This just seems like a win win situation.
Part of any group or organization getting something accomplished is desiginating the right people for a job/task to be performed. If this is done the organization looks better.
I really appreciate what the AFA, the WCB along with alot of other associations and individuals do to help anyone better theirselves. Isn't improvement an objective for everyone.

Dave


The WCB feels that there dosen't need to be 4 years of turmoil figuring out which outfit is the best until we have another BWFA, Guild, or barefooter assoc. We want to be a part of the AFA. The competitors want to be a part of the AFA. It's simple man we do it just like the FIA did it on the marketplace. The contest has been put on for more than thirty years and they have never owned a forge or an anvil or a vise. It's not like you are taking a risk. If the WCB fails you have everybody haul their rigs thousands of miles like they did the last 30 years.

Craig Trnka
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 02 Aug 2007 11:34 #237

  • George Geist
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Ok guys,
It's been several months on this one. Has any decision been made about this yet?
George
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 02 Aug 2007 12:41 #238

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I was told the WCB withdrew it proposal. Why I don't know. Maybe Criag can give some insite.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 03 Aug 2007 00:50 #239

George Geist wrote:
Ok guys,
It's been several months on this one. Has any decision been made about this yet?
George


..................................................................

I would be interested in doing something like this in "another few years!", when my daughter is "older".

Can anyone tell me what needs to be done, and how to get started on the WCB?........thanks............Linda.....................
________
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