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Poll: Should the AFA turn the national championship and team selection over to the WCB?

es 20 28.2%
o 24 33.8%
eed more information 17 23.9%
on\'t care 10 14.1%
Total number of voters: 43 ( eddiemarcus37 ) See more
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TOPIC: WCB proposal to the AFA

RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 14:38 #181

  • tbloomer
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Why would anyone be silly enough to do that? Sponsors determine where their money goes, not supplicants.
Why would a sponsor what sells machine made shoes support an event that revolves around hand made shoes? Why would a sponsor that sells gas forges support an event that uses coke forges? Why would a sponsor that sells flat horn anvils with turning cams promote an event that uses round conical horn anvils without turning cams?

It would seem to make sense that the sponsors would promote the stuff what provides the most exposure for their products to the most potential customers. Since the blacksmithing competitor represents a very small segment of the market, why would sponsors bother to compete for such a small slice of a small pie? I'm not following the logic on this one.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 15:23 #182

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tbloomer wrote:
Why would a sponsor what sells machine made shoes support an event that revolves around hand made shoes? Why would a sponsor that sells gas forges support an event that uses coke forges? Why would a sponsor that sells flat horn anvils with turning cams promote an event that uses round conical horn anvils without turning cams?

It would seem to make sense that the sponsors would promote the stuff what provides the most exposure for their products to the most potential customers. Since the blacksmithing competitor represents a very small segment of the market, why would sponsors bother to compete for such a small slice of a small pie? I'm not following the logic on this one.

Maybe because a sonsor who sells machine made shoes knows today probably no one makes all their own shoes. Maybe because the sponsor knows today not many farriers run round with a coal forge because there are too many good gas forges on the market today. Maybe because the sponsor knows some farriers don't have big shop anvils in their everyday drive around rig, that they might need a turning cam once in a while; or that a more flat horn makes shaping hind shoe branches a little easier for some farriers. They know not all every day work is like the contest situation.

And the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys :D

Mikel
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 15:56 #183

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Tom
I'm not sure. But could it be because of the following statements you made on the AFA Boards last December.

Re:Board Restructuring Committee
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2006, 02:11:12 AM »

Gary:

With all due respect, last I looked I am not accountable to a general AFA member form Emmet Idaho.

The people I am accountable to (in order)

1. The general membership of the WSFA
2. The AFA membership of the WSFA
3. The AFA Board of Directors
4. The Executive Committee of the AFA


Re:Board Restructuring Committee
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2006, 12:24:30 PM »

I think your right Rick, but the fact of the matter is that the general membership of my association votes for president of my association, not just the AFA members So therefore of course I am accountable to my own assocition membership first.

Here's the irony, if we were currently regionlized and I was on the board, I along with 2 other people would be accountable to Mr. Miller. But at this percise moment I am not, and I refuse to answer questions when I know that they are not sincere.

With an attitude like this why would anyone want to contact you.

Sorry, just call it as I see it.

Come Gary that's out of context and you know it. You asked what I perceived to be contrary question shortly after you accused me of being a dead a-s-s in a live seat. I thought that we had moved on from that point with appologies extendeding from both sides.

Am I wrong about that?
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 16:04 #184

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Tom Stovall wrote:
With all due respect, by any fiscal or educational definition, the AFA contest and AFT are liabilities, not assets.
An asset is anything of value. A resource, a name, a logo, a trademark, a perception. The National Championship is one third of the convention. The Contest is as much an asset as the Marketplace, Chapter Alley, Jam Session, Spouse's luncheon, Rig contest, Reception, Awards Presentation and Banquet, Cultural Exchange Program, Demonstrations, Lectures, etc.
How exactly does a liability magically become an asset by virtue of your saying so when the balance sheet says otherwise?
Actually when I look close at the balance sheet it becomes virtually impossible to make the determination that you refer to. Tom, Do the wet labs make money? Did Gene's lecture make money? It is impossible to determine who came for the contest and who came for the marketplace and who came for the lectures.
Even the sponsors, most money was donated for the "overall convention".
I know for sure part of my registration fee was to see the contest, and part was to see the Marketplace, Rig Contest and all the other parts of the Convention.
Apples and oranges. If the AFA really wants to stop going into the hole, the first order of business is to quit digging.
Our Convention is unique because it has a little something for everyone. That is what makes it the biggest farrier event under one roof.
We need to work together to help make the AFA and it's Convention and learning experience all it can be. It takes everyone to do that.

Tom, we appreciate you and everyone else getting involved, making positive comments and suggestions.

Thank you all for your input.

Respectfully,
John Blombach, CJF, Treasurer
"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet"
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 16:19 #185

  • George Geist
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Well said John
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 17:59 #186

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John, Before you make statements concerning the AFA convention being the best or biggest; you might want to check with Frank Lessiter and talk numbers. I'm pretty sure as far as attendance, educational opportunities and money spent by attendees; the IHCS beats the AFA convention hands down. Frank does it without a contest.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 18:09 #187

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TRIP HAMMER wrote:
I know for sure part of my registration fee was to see the contest, and part was to see the Marketplace, Rig Contest and all the other parts of the Convention.


But isn't the marketplace "subcontracted" out to the FIA? You still get the benefit of attending. Is the WBC planning on moving the finals away from the AFA conference? Does it matter who organizes it when you pay for the registration?
P
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 18:20 #188

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Oh, I also don't recall any of the AFA Conventions I've attended "being under one roof"; it usually requires commuting some distance for the demos and/or contest. If the AFA hadn't dropped the ball years ago, Doug Butler, Dr. Redden and Frank Lessiter and their respective seminars would have never gotten out of the starting gates. But, I suppose that's "crying over spilled milk".

With the WBC successfully running the contest, the AFA has a shot at being competitive in the educational/networking/business arena.

Every year I seek the info that makes my business better and more profitable. I spend my educational funds where I get the biggest bang for the buck. The last couple of years the AFA convention has run a miserable 3rd or 4th. I am not alone in my opinion.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 18:59 #189

  • George Geist
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Brian,
Best AFA convention I ever went to was Ontario CA in 2000. That one was all in the same facility and in a great location. If they would have them in places like that I would buy a card just to be able to go.

Rochester NY is also under one roof. I guess if you've ever been to Rochester in the winter you know it darn well better be.

This brings me to a point. I went to Salt Lake City. I thought was ok but my entourage was miserable. I wont go there again. For that reason I had no desire to go to Omaha, Chattanooga, Albequerque, or any other such place.

They need to start holding these things in some better places. I know is a situation that really can't be helped but if possible I think would improve attendance.

Perhaps maybe Ledbetter TX could be put on the list? :D
George
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 19:43 #190

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T.N. Trosin]Come Gary that's out of context and you know it.[/QUOTE]I think not. Durning a discussion of the reorganization where I questioned why there was still a committee working the issue when the BOD had disapproved it and had not requested further process. I made the following statement wrote:
"Which takes us back to since the BOD disapproved the last proposal from the committee to restructure the BOD. And did not direct that further studies or proposals be made to restructure the BOD that committee should of been disbanded altogeather.

As a member of the BOD and the BOD represenative on the EC. I would expect that you would of know this to be the way thing should be done.

If I'm wrong with my assumptions then I'm sure as my Rep to the EC you will set me straight."[/COLOR]

In which you respondes with the above statement.
T.N. Trosin wrote:
You asked what I perceived to be contrary question shortly after you accused me of being a dead a-s-s in a live seat. I thought that we had moved on from that point with appologies extendeding from both sides.

Am I wrong about that?
You are right in that you were ticked off at me for a prevous statement. In which we did appogize and moved on.

Never the less you made the above statement, and I think you ment it, then you went on to try and defend your statement when you were called on it by others.

Tom, I not sure how you really feel about this issue. One thing I'm sure of though is it is very clear you have some animosity towards me because I continue to voice my opions on the AFA and the way the leadership responds to members who disagree with them.

As Ron said in the same discussion on the AFA board:

"Tom Gary is P i ssed off. He is just a single example of how the membership in general feels. IMO you, the EC and the BoD need to listen to them and figure out how to address their anger in real ways. If this isn't done the AFA is going to continue to tear itself apart and its fractured fabric is never going to heal."

I still feel this way. Just because the election is over doesn't change any of this. And those in leadership postions within the AFA had better start listening to what the general members want. As of now I have not seen this.

As a potental BOD rep to the region in which I live. I suggest you start listening.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 19:43 #191

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George Geist in gray, deletia

Re: AFA Convention sites


Perhaps maybe Ledbetter TX could be put on the list?


Ledbetter has a population of 48, the speed limit is 70 mph down the main drag, and the nearest stop light is ten miles away. On the other hand, we do have an antique/general store, a defunct buggy shop, a beer joint, and a bed and breakfast with six rooms.

Houston would probably be a little better venue. Last time the AFA convention was there, I did a plating demo in the Grand Ballroom of the old Houston Hilton. The demo was business as usual; but I wasn't too crazy about the ride up to the third floor in the freight elevator with the horse. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 20:00 #192

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Now that really does it!

Forget about the lectures or the contest or the meetings. The most important part of any convention is the bar! If Ledbetter has one of them it would be a perfect venue :p

Anyway, yeah I would vote for Houston or anywhere in Texas for that matter in the winter.

Biggest problem which I dont think is the AFA's fault is that they must depend on these local associations to do these deals. Their usually a few years in the planning and oftentimes the associations may fall apart during those years as happened to them in Florida one year.

When this happens it can mess up the whole convention. For this reason their forced to find places put up by good strong local associations.

I'm not sure the problem is insurmountable but it is a big problem. Just one of many.
George
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 25 Mar 2007 21:05 #193

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reillyshoe wrote:
But isn't the marketplace "subcontracted" out to the FIA? You still get the benefit of attending. Is the WBC planning on moving the finals away from the AFA conference? Does it matter who organizes it when you pay for the registration?
Quite right Pat, as is the Banquet.
John
"That it will never come again is what makes life so sweet"
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 26 Mar 2007 10:45 #194

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Still...the point is, the FIA, a non-for-profit, publicly accountable association, has never taken over AFA committee responsiblilities as set forth by the AFA Policy.

The WCB proposal states it will be taking over committee responsibilities, therefore they are not “just running the contest”.

Has anyone here ever attented a WCB contest?

Most farriers already complain about the time away and travel expense of competition. How is adding the time away, plus practice time and added expense of travel going to resolve that complaint?
Who is going to the WCB Contest in Louisiana?

How many competitors are in fact entered? The registration extension usually indicates slow attendence.
What is the entry fee?

What is the prize money and payout schedule?

Why isn’t all of this posted on the WCB website for all to get excited about?


To date, the WCB has failed to forthrightly answer any of the pertinent and relevant questions to allow the Board to make a decision of this magnitude in good faith.

Once this begins, is the Board going to contract out certification, awards, best rigs, etc.?


Andrew :confused:
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 26 Mar 2007 11:05 #195

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TRIP HAMMER in gray, my old stuff in brown, deletia

An asset is anything of value. A resource, a name, a logo, a trademark, a perception. The National Championship is one third of the convention. The Contest is as much an asset as the Marketplace, Chapter Alley, Jam Session, Spouse's luncheon, Rig contest, Reception, Awards Presentation and Banquet, Cultural Exchange Program, Demonstrations, Lectures, etc.

The key word is "value." The AFA has roughly 3,000 members, the contest has about 60 contestants. A contest that loses money and serves only a minuscule portion of the membership (about 2%) cannot be considered an asset by any reasonable criteria.

How exactly does a liability magically become an asset by virtue of your saying so when the balance sheet says otherwise?

Actually when I look close at the balance sheet it becomes virtually impossible to make the determination that you refer to.

No disrespect intended, but that dog-ate-my-homework inability does not bode well for arguments in favor of the contest and AFT. The $5K loss figure was not denied by the president-elect.

Tom, Do the wet labs make money? Did Gene's lecture make money? It is impossible to determine who came for the contest and who came for the marketplace and who came for the lectures.

Nossir, it's not "impossible", it's easy. Simply compare the number of folks who attend the AFA convention with the number attending the IHCS. One has a contest, the other doesn't.

Apples and oranges. If the AFA really wants to stop going into the hole, the first order of business is to quit digging.

Our Convention is unique because it has a little something for everyone. That is what makes it the biggest farrier event under one roof.

Again, not disrespect intended, but the AFA convention is probably the second largest national farrier event in the United States. Put another way, since there are only two such events worthy of note, the AFA is the smallest national farrier event under one roof.

We need to work together to help make the AFA and it's Convention and learning experience all it can be. It takes everyone to do that.

If the AFA convention is intended to be a learning experience for the membership, then the AFA should divest itself from the contest and AFT because they have no educational value and serve only a very few.

Tom, we appreciate you and everyone else getting involved, making positive comments and suggestions.

John, my input may not always be considered positive because I tend to call a spade a spade and not a "non-motorized personal excavating instrument." As I see it, the contest emperor and AFT are butt nekkid and it's time to send them packing.

Thank you all for your input.

You are most welcome.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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