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Poll: Should the AFA turn the national championship and team selection over to the WCB?

es 20 28.2%
o 24 33.8%
eed more information 17 23.9%
on\'t care 10 14.1%
Total number of voters: 43 ( eddiemarcus37 ) See more
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TOPIC: WCB proposal to the AFA

RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 14:46 #16

  • IRNWKR_2
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I don't see how this could jeopardize our n-f-p situation since we use other for profit organization to help us do other things like our accountants.

It is reported that we loose about 5K every year on our contest, If this is a budgeting issue then it is sad since we have been doing this for 30 ? years.

The way the contest is now and has been is if you compete you miss the rest of the convention and it is set up like a marathon. I know it has been asked that it be broken up so the competitors could participate in the lectures but has never been done.

If you want to compete at the convention you have to lug a thousand pounds of equipment all over the country as opposed to 40 lbs of hand tools on a plane.

If you truly want the best on our national team then the WCB is a better contest.

I am not 100% sold on the WCB doing our contest but if not I do think we need to make some changes in ours. I think Myron should learn from the boards vote that rigidity is not allways a good thing. I still don't understand how the proposal from the WCB was moved off of the agenda for the BOD meeting into the EC hands?
Jason Gilliland
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 21:23 #17

  • AndrewCJF
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QUOTE FROM JASON: I don't see how this could jeopardize our n-f-p situation since we use other for profit organization to help us do other things like our accountants.

One of the n-f-p problems is because the WCB is a chapter and sits on the AFA Board. Unlike the WCB, our accountant doesn't vote on whether we do business with him/her. The FIA is a n-f-p association.

QUOTE FROM JASON: It is reported that we loose about 5K every year on our contest, If this is a budgeting issue then it is sad since we have been doing this for 30 ? years.

"Liars figure and figures lie". The educational value of the competition to the AFA is well worth $5,000 and more; a good investment for a not-for-profit company. Ask those who figure we lose $5K on the contest just how much we lose on the lectures....?

QUOTE FROM JASON: The way the contest is now and has been is if you compete you miss the rest of the convention and it is set up like a marathon. I know it has been asked that it be broken up so the competitors could participate in the lectures but has never been done.

A few years ago, in response to this complaint, the AFA moved the contest dates to Mon, Tues & Wed. This did not solve the problem and we did not see competitors at the lectures. The competitors were then the ones requesting it moved back to Wed, Thurs & Friday. I did not see a solution to this problem in the WCB proposal.

QUOTE FROM JASON: I am not 100% sold on the WCB doing our contest but if not I do think we need to make some changes in ours. I think Myron should learn from the boards vote that rigidity is not allways a good thing.

Myron had appointed a sub-committee of the Rules Committee to review the AFA contest and come back to the Rules Committee with recommendations for revamping the AFA contest on behalf of the AFA. Craig Trnka was on that sub-committee, I believe he was the chair of that sub-committee, so Craig would know more than I as to how that sub-committee evolved into the for-profit WCB.

QUOTE FROM JASON: I still don't understand how the proposal from the WCB was moved off of the agenda for the BOD meeting into the EC hands?

AS far as I know the WCB withdrew their proposal in favor of their motion for an Ad Hoc Committee. So you’d have to ask the WCB why it was moved.

Hope this helps, Andrew.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 21:30 #18

  • AndrewCJF
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QUOTE FROM CRAIG: Gary,
All very good points. I have the proposal that we sent to the BoD if you would like me to send it to you, or any one else for that matter.
Craig Trnka


QUOTE FROM CRAIG: Andrew, You say the words "take over" that says a lot.

Craig,

Why don't you post the WCB proposal that you sent to the BoD here and let the readers decide if the WCB is "taking over" the contest.

Andrew
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 23:09 #19

  • Craig Trnka
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Andrew,
Does the bold text mean you are ****ed? Somebody should be able to put the proposal on this site? I can barely type. You keep throwing the NFP thing out there but do you really think that is jeopradizing the AFA's status? Because if it is the WCB should not be a chapter in the AFA---Period. As of right now the WCB is a chapter, and as a chapter we can make a motion at the BoD. Think about this for a second if your a chapter. You want to make a change (Boy that's a nasty word) and the EC thinks that it is heading in the wrong direction but the BoD thinks its heading in the right direction. The first thing you do is discredit that chapter. The BoD unanamiously voted the WCB in and 3/4 of the Bod want to see what can be laid on the table as far as a contract goes. If the BoD says it is a bad contract, I'm good with that! If the BoD say's its a good contract are you good with that?
As far as the sub committee goes. Myron said at the rules committee meeting in Omaha that he would resign before he would let this type of format go into the convention contest. If you want me to list the people in the room who heard that I would be happy to so. So what is the point of heading a sub committee that has no future. Instead I was removed from the rules committee for conflict of interest.
I guess you could call me a Liar but if the WCB could cut down costs with Fire Marshalls, Propane, and other expenses that would still be a savings to the AFA, and the AFA would still have a kick #@$# contest with a more educational venue. The savings come from outsourcing not from taking away the venue.
Hey Jason I figure your not a liar!

Craig Trnka
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 23:15 #20

  • Gary_Miller
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AndrewCJF] One of the n-f-p problems is because the WCB is a chapter and sits on the AFA Board. Unlike the WCB, our accountant doesn't vote on whether we do business with him/her. The FIA is a n-f-p association.[/QUOTE]It not about doing buisness.

Its about an new organization putting on a bigger and better show with more competiveness through out the year. The wraping it all up at the convention with the National Finals competition.

Its about a group dedicated to the Farrier Trade as well as the Farrier competitions. Who also believe in the AFA.

AndrewCJF wrote:
"Liars figure and figures lie".
Only when there are inaccurate records kept.AndrewCJF wrote:
The educational value of the competition to the AFA is well worth $5,000 and more wrote:
What educational value?AndrewCJF wrote:
Ask those who figure we lose $5K on the contest just how much we lose on the lectures....?
If we are losing money on the lectures then we are losing money on the whole convention. Then convention should pay for its self. If this is not happening then it time to find out why?
AndrewCJF wrote:
A few years ago, in response to this complaint, the AFA moved the contest dates to Mon, Tues & Wed. This did not solve the problem and we did not see competitors at the lectures. The competitors were then the ones requesting it moved back to Wed, Thurs & Friday. I did not see a solution to this problem in the WCB proposal.
The WCB proposal solve this problem because it is ran in heats of 10 competitors at a time. Which allows for to things. Spectators to get close enough to be able to watch their favorite competitor, and for the competitors to be able to attend the lectures if they would like.
AndrewCJF wrote:
Myron had appointed a sub-committee of the Rules Committee to review the AFA contest and come back to the Rules Committee with recommendations for revamping the AFA contest on behalf of the AFA. Craig Trnka was on that sub-committee, I believe he was the chair of that sub-committee, so Craig would know more than I as to how that sub-committee evolved into the for-profit WCB.
Craig was release from the Rules Committee due a feeling of a conflict of intrest due to his involvement with the WCB. His replacement was someone else who has dealings with Mustag the sponser of all the big competitions. I also understand from speaking with others that many on the committee has ties to Mustag in someway or another. Of course what I'm hearing could be incorrect. But if what I heard is correct there is a big conflict of intrest there.
AndrewCJF wrote:
AS far as I know the WCB withdrew their proposal in favor of their motion for an Ad Hoc Committee. So you’d have to ask the WCB why it was moved.
The WCB did not withdraw thier proposal. The decided in the intrest of coperation that a Ad Hoc Committee be formed to look at the proposal and negotiate to come to an agreement that is good for the AFA and the WCB. Of course it could be that they don't come to an agreement at all. Ether way the BOD will have to do their job at the mid year meeting and make a dicission one way or the other.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 23:50 #21

  • Gary_Miller
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AndrewCJF wrote:
Why don't you post the WCB proposal that you sent to the BoD here and let the readers decide if the WCB is "taking over" the contest.

Andrew
I tried to up load the proposal, however the file is to large. If you would like to see the proposal from Craig as well as the proposal with andrews questions. Just PM me or send me an email at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and I will send you the files.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 01:04 #22

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 01:49 #23

  • J.H. shoeing
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here we go again. I have some opinions about the contest, the AFA, and its leadership. But who gives a ****.

Andrew it appears to me that you called one of my friends a liar. I have taken offense and I will be happy to explain how much when we are face to face.

Sincerly
Jeff Holder AFA#8651 WCB#85
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 02:11 #24

  • AndrewCJF
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Jeff,

I don't know what it looks like on your screen, I didn't call anyone a liar. This is an open forum and that's a figure of speech made famous by Abe Lincoln. And if you were threatening me with violence perhaps you should leave the keyboard to adults.

Sincerely,

Andrew.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 02:42 #25

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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AndrewCJF in gray, Jason in brown, deletia

It is reported that we loose about 5K every year on our contest, If this is a budgeting issue then it is sad since we have been doing this for 30 ? years.

"Liars figure and figures lie". The educational value of the competition to the AFA is well worth $5,000 and more

Oh? Please be kind enough to delineate exactly what "educational value" emanates from any farriery competition. Those I've attended took place at warp speed and didn't involve any education; in reality, the educational value of any competition is non-existent.

a good investment for a not-for-profit company.

Sez who? A skeptic like myself might point out that $5K will buy a few ads in slick rags touting the AFA's certification program - and those ads would reach quite a few folks who are unaware of the AFA's certification program and might actually be of some benefit to both farriers and John Q. Horseowner. The horseowning public doesn't give a rat's patootie about who wins any shoeing/forging contest, but a few ads in slick rags might make them aware that they have a choice between hiring a farrier who has demonstrated his ability to shoe a horse and someone who has not.

Ask those who figure we lose $5K on the contest just how much we lose on the lectures....?

Since the educational value of contests hovers around zero and that of the worst lecture is exponentially higher, you might consider the wisdom contained in the old bromide that goes, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."

A few years ago, in response to this complaint, the AFA moved the contest dates to Mon, Tues & Wed. This did not solve the problem and we did not see competitors at the lectures. The competitors were then the ones requesting it moved back to Wed, Thurs & Friday. I did not see a solution to this problem in the WCB proposal.

How about just relegating the contest to the muckpile? It's a fiscal heatsink that has no redeeming value to the horseowning public or the vast majority of farriers who serve them. Why exactly does the AFA "need" a contest to fulfill its mission?

If somebody else wants to have a "contest" shoeing horses or field a "shoeing team", good on 'em - but why is the AFA engaged in such frivolity when much more important matters go unresolved? Heaven forfend that some heretic like myself dare to point out that shoeing/forging contests are just self-aggrandizing fluff of benefit only to the contestants, that the AFA's failure to promote the certification program is a disgrace that does both its members and the horseowing public a grave disservice, or that the AFA's failure to aggressively pursue some form of medical/hospitalization insurance for its rank and file speaks eloquently of the misplaced priorities of the powers that be.

Personally, I think it's high time the AFA lost its hidebound, daddydiditthataway, mentality and considered rethinking its priorities in favor of dedicating its resources to benefitting farriery instead of just a few elite AFA members who can forge a roadster shoe in their sleep.
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 02:49 #26

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Andrew, maybe you should write up a counter proposal or form a committee to do so instead of busting this one up with questions asked to cut down the WCB. I'm not a member of the WCB so don't go there, but you dang sure seem to hate this deal with a passion. I don't see the down side you do, and don't agree with the questions you came up with in some cir***stances. This looks to have put a burr under your bu*t*t. If this is how you are going to run the AFA I'm not sure the voters were right. JMO. I may end up leaving this flaming ship after all. Dang, if someone comes up with an idea that changes things for the better and all your going to do is fight those ideas, how the heck are we going to move forward and get better? :(
Ben Sturman
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 03:01 #27

Is their a conflict for the WCB to use "World Champion Blacksmith" when it is already used by the World Champion Blacksmith held in Calgary? This is very misleading. One of the first things that jumped out at me when I first heard of the WCB.

Jeff, I read Andrews comment "Liars figure and figures lie". Did not take this as he was calling anyone a liar. As Andrew has already pointed out, it is a qoute. This did not imply that Jason or Craig are liars.

The issue with equipment is a problem. Hauling your rig thousands of miles to compete is unreasonable. Haveing an anvil and forge available and enableing competitors to travel by flight is a great idea. Why can't the AFA do this?

How does the Calgary World Champion Blacksmith competition deal with this?

I understand Fire Marshalls place a lot of restrictions on the use of gas and coal forges and the cost is pretty high. Is this a big issue?
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 03:07 #28

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Andrew, maybe you should write up a counter proposal or form a committee to do so instead of busting this one up with questions asked to cut down the WCB. I'm not a member of the WCB so don't go there, but you dang sure seem to hate this deal with a passion. I don't see the down side you do, and don't agree with the questions you came up with in some cir***stances. This looks to have put a burr under your bu*t*t. If this is how you are going to run the AFA I'm not sure the voters were right. JMO. I may end up leaving this flaming ship after all. Dang, if someone comes up with an idea that changes things for the better and all your going to do is fight those ideas, how the heck are we going to move forward and get better? :(

Proposals are proposals, this is how a proposal should be handled. A proposal is not a contract it is meant to be questioned and either accepted or rejected. Your comment suggests that any and all proposals should just be accepted?

I am not for or against the WCB, however I am glad this is openly discussed and questioned. About time this is happening. Can be a sticky discussion, considering strong opinions on both sides. Just the way a good discussion goes sometimes.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 03:12 #29

  • Craig Trnka
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Tom,
I agree to disagree. What you write is true if you are looking thru your eyes. There is many beliefs that come to the horseshoeing world. What I believe dosen't make me wrong and what you believe dosen't make you wrong. I guess the long and short of it is that if you don't like competing and making shoes
don't. If you do like making shoes and competing----do. It takes all kinds to make it all go round. What we are talking about here is not a miracle cure, but it puts things in place. If you don't care for competing your membership dues are not being put torwards that. If you are into competing you still can do that in the AFA convention venue. We don't have to bicker amongst our selves, there are bigger problems at the door.

Respectfully,

Craig Trnka
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 16 Mar 2007 03:20 #30

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Phil, you didn't read what I said. Look closely, I said if this proposal doesn't work for the AFA, why not study it with a committee and write a counter proposal and see what happens.

This is not how a proposal is handled. This is bull headed animosity run amok.
Ben Sturman
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Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

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