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Poll: Should the AFA turn the national championship and team selection over to the WCB?

es 20 28.2%
o 24 33.8%
eed more information 17 23.9%
on\'t care 10 14.1%
Total number of voters: 43 ( eddiemarcus37 ) See more
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TOPIC: WCB proposal to the AFA

RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 13:09 #136

  • Rick Burten
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I'm sorry Gary, I should have been more specific. Yes indeed, we need identify, target and then reach a specific audience.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 13:10 #137

Is there a ladies division or class in WCB compeition? I found website but couldn't find out anything. I sent email to link on site but no reply?! I tried calling Harrah's where the compeition is but they didn't know anything about a blacksmith event...can someone please help answer my questions. Sarah.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 13:42 #138

  • Gary_Miller
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fairweatherforge wrote:
Rick, I would think you'd agree, when I mention competition I'm basically talking about the practice going into the competition. That's a given right?
Practice is not education. It is merly profecting the skills that you have already learned. The learning stage was the educational part.fairweatherforge wrote:
Your right one competition one shoe to nail on. Would you question Craig's shoe fit? Whether you agree with it or not its fit to the shape of the foot. If we all had to book work to go with that shoe fit we'd be getting somewhere.
I have seen Craig fit a shoe durning one of his clinics. When he was done the shoe was the shape of the hoof just like it should be. He did not do anything diffrent than I would. He was just alot faster than I am.

I would submit though that once the shoe is manufactured, handmade or keg, into the basic shape of a horseshoe. That the process used to shape and fit the shoe to the horse is the same.fairweatherforge wrote:
So, all these new aluminum milled shoes out. (Deleted)
Can you or anyone else on this site actually show me one that's actually been shape to fit a foot. (deleted)
Please show me one of these aluminim milled shoes that fit a foot.
I don't have a picture. However, each and every time my mentor has applied and aluminim shoe it is shaped to the hoof just like any other shoe.fairweatherforge wrote:
Imo, most competitors can't fit these technology advanced shoes.
Thats to bad as the shaping and fit is no diffrent that a handmade or keg steel shoe
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 13:51 #139

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TexMexShoeGirl wrote:
Is there a ladies division or class in WCB compeition?
According to Jim Poor, "If you find a good striker, marry her!"

Seriously though, I don't think there is any gender advantage or disadvantage in a forging competition. Most competative riding events do not have seperate divisions for men and ladies either. I've heard that ladies are better at target shooting than men . . . thus I've learn't not to scorn women, especially women with guns! :)
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 13:56 #140

  • Gary_Miller
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Rick Burten wrote:
Because the WCB does not as yet have an established track record, this could be a problem. Not an insurmountable one, but one for which contingency plans need to be in place.
I think there is enough expertize with in the organization that there will not be any problems that they can not overcome.Rick Burten wrote:
Reaching out to the "casual competitor" is another.
With the WCBs diffrent classes for diffrent skill levels they are reaching out to the "causual competitor" as well. There are also other venues that local Farrier organizations put on that the causual competitor can attend.
If a person wants to compete they will find as way to do just that.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 14:23 #141

  • Craig Trnka
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TexMexShoeGirl wrote:
Is there a ladies division or class in WCB compeition? I found website but couldn't find out anything. I sent email to link on site but no reply?! I tried calling Harrah's where the compeition is but they didn't know anything about a blacksmith event...can someone please help answer my questions. Sarah.

Sarah,
You can contact Julie at the WCB and she would be happy to answer any questions you might have 641-660-3888. We havbe been making a new website and will have it be up in a few days. Live and learn. The actual event in Bossier City, LA is actually at Harrahs Louisiana Downs. We don't have a womens division but we do have plenty of competitors that are women. We have a ranking system that allows you to be competitive in this venue. There is really no original idea that we have come up with. Most of the ranking system is almost like an incentive roping where you are competing against everyone for the overall points but for incentive prizes you are competiting against the individuals in your rank.

Rank 1 entrylevel person.
Rank 2 someone who has competed causually
Rank 3 someone that has competed in the open but never won an open competition overall
Rank 4 people that have won open competitions

Hope to hear from ya.

Craig
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 14:47 #142

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Craig Trnka wrote:
Rank 1 entrylevel person.
Rank 2 someone who has competed causually
Rank 3 someone that has competed in the open but never won an open competition overall
Rank 4 people that have won open competitions
Craig
So Craig, is it your contention that those in rank 4 are the rankest of them all? :p :D :)

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 20:45 #143

My mentor use to say "Do we fit the shoe to the foot or the foot to the shoe?" I quess it depends. :D

Friend of mine loaned me a DVD from the convention. Billy Crothers makeing a shoe out of concave stock. Learned a lot just watching him and listening to his comments. Could hear Craig in the backround critiqueing Bill, that was also educational.

Competition is educational.

I hope the AFA and the WCB work things out and it all works out good.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 22:23 #144

Phil Armitage wrote:
My mentor use to say "Do we fit the shoe to the foot or the foot to the shoe?" I quess it depends. :D

Friend of mine loaned me a DVD from the convention. Billy Crothers makeing a shoe out of concave stock. Learned a lot just watching him and listening to his comments. Could hear Craig in the backround critiqueing Bill, that was also educational.

Competition is educational.

I hope the AFA and the WCB work things out and it all works out good.

I think that DVD was probably from the WCB "Superclinic" not the convention. ;)
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 22 Mar 2007 22:57 #145

  • Gary_Miller
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OK, we got off track a little but the discussion was good and I think important to the proposal.

Before we get back to the proposal I think it important that the following be said. So those in AFA leadership postions understand more about where I'm coming from. And how come I'm involved in this discussion.

I have been accused by Dick Funguy,in an e-mail, that I am unhappy as to the out come of the elections and the entire leadership of the AFA. Go figure for the last year there has failed to be any leadership in the AFA.
I was also accused of being negative and a non supporter of transparancy due to my answers to Andrews questions. And was asked to be a part of solving the problem and not part of opening up another bleeding cut in our membership. As well as told I have a right to question the administration, but try doing it in a positive way.
To the AFA leadership, those who are currently elected and those who may in the future be elected. I give you my pledge that I will work with you in developing and implementing and supporting what ever it is that is needed to move the AFA forward. I will not however standby silently anymore and watch so called leaders drag this organization into the ground as I have seen done in the last year. I give you a promise that as long as you do the job you was elected to do and focuse on the mission of the AFA. My support, will be given freely. OTOH the first time you fail to do you job, or fail to listen to the membeship, pull some ****** stunt like was done last year, or lose site of the mission satement. I will be on your back like barnicals on a whale. If you think I'm being negatilve it probably because I need to be to get my point accross, and thats just to bad and something you will have to get over.

Now back to the proposal and the buisness at hand.

Anyway here is the next page of questions from Andrew. I have included part of the proposal where it seem necessay to the questions.
FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
An exciting opportunity exists for American Farrier's Association to partner with World Championship Blacksmiths, LLC to facilitate the competition at the AFA’s Convention starting in February 2008.
AndrewCJF wrote:
• What is exciting about the AFA giving away a property it has invested many thousands of dollars to develop coupled with countless hours volunteered by dedicated members.
Because it will give the AFA the chance to funnel their resource to focus more on their mission.AndrewCJF wrote:
• What benefit does the AFA receive for turning over the use of its name, logo and reputation to an unknown organization without, at the very least, an upfront fee and licensing royalty fee agreement?
Why does the AFA have to benefit at all? Who said anything about turning over it name, logo and reputation? By the way what reputation has the AFA earned from its a competitition. A fee/royalty come on give me a break this is a chapter of the AFA suggesting that they be allowed to run the national competition.AndrewCJF wrote:
• The Contest is a key asset of the AFA. Why should the unknown, unproven WCB be allowed to exploit and profit from this key AFA asset?
An asset is something of value or worth, that is capable of making money. It seems to me that the competition is more of a liability.

Andrew please explane to me how the compition at the convention is an asset and not a liability?
FROM PROPOSAL wrote:
This partnership would allow specialization for both parties. As a non-profit organization dedicated to education, the AFA would have countless hours and dollars freed up to dedicate to other educational opportunities while still giving the AFA’s competitors what
they’ve been looking for – a fair systematic approach to the competition– and in a more user friendly set up (show up and compete).
AndrewCJF wrote:
• Are not dollars and hours spent by the AFA on their competitions done so because of the educational opportunities?
First of all its competition not competitions. Unless there is more than one competition that the AFA holds.
I watched parts of the competition at the convention this year. While it was fun to watch I recieved no education from it. So once again I ask you to explain to me the educational opportunities/value recieved by the competition?AndrewCJF wrote:
• Is that not what the AFA has done in the past?
I'm not sure since I'm new. But it seems to me that having to haul all your tools to the convention each year is not a user freindly set up. Also the way the competition was ran at the convention one could not get close enough to observe most of the competitors let alone see what they had done when finished.AndrewCJF wrote:
• How can we assure the AFA membership that we feel safe in allowing three competitors and a fledgling company to run our contest?
By helping them understand that those running the competition have been involved with competing for years and therefore know what it takes to organize and hold a competition. An was not the CEO of the WCB the president of the AFA. I think that those involved with the leadership of the WCB have a pretty good resume.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 23 Mar 2007 01:49 #146

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Rick Burten wrote:
So Craig, is it your contention that those in rank 4 are the rankest of them all? :p :D :)

Rick
Rick,
That would make them SICK Rank, Dude!

Gary,
I think it's great you want to get back on track but I wanted to add just a little tidbit about competition. Everybody comes to the trade for different reasons. There is probably as many different aspects of shoeing horses as there are opinions on these boards.
To me making shoes is an excuse not a concept. Its an excuse to get together and practice. Its an excuse to go on a road trip. Its an excuse to slow in the day and knock out a pair of sliders when you feel pressed for time. Its a click of men and women that like making shoes. I don't think that they want to take over the world, misery loves company. Our intention with the WCB was to take what we love and focus on that. The Super clinic was fun because the group that we had there got exactly what they wanted and none of the other stuff. It wasn't for everybody but we didn't say it would be. Jimmy Buffet has his "Parrot Heads" They travel with his band and they have a big time. Jimmy is making money but he puts his beliefs out front.
We thought it would be great to have more of what this group of individuals wanted which is Watching, making, learning, and competing. The one thing that I have gotten out competing is traveling and learning about people all over the world. I have learned more about different shoeing cultures than I would have ever imagined. One thing is for certain---Your average farrier foot solider all over the world is good people!

Craig
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 23 Mar 2007 02:33 #147

  • Gary Hill
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I agree with you Craig, because you are finally wording what you want to do in the correct manner. The AFA in my little opinion should worry about the education part of the trade and go after the schools that are dumping folks out into this trade and butchering it up! The WCB is like what the PBA did with the PRCA. They broke off and made a new and exciting venue for people. Heck if you have Direct TV or Dish you can see competions of all kinds of things on alot of differant channels, so why not Blacksmithing or building horseshoes? Get some sponsors and get it on the air! The AFA program is very hard to get? Ole Ralph down in Georgia has spanked the AFA with his availability to get his show out there! Seems that the AFA keeps shootin itself in the foot? I'm greedy I want both. I want to see everyone succeed in both avenues! I like to work hot and I will always watch and learn from someone if I see them do something I might use down the road! I may not need to build the shoes on the "List". But I will learn something to help me with another type shoe I might need to build in the future? I also don't talk "Vet" to my clients and I don't have enought equine Vets around here that talk above me or my clients to worry about "proper language" if ya know what I mean? But between us we do get problems solved. Good Luck and I really want to get to Shreveport to see the competions and Yes I will hit the Slots and Tables too! :D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 23 Mar 2007 03:19 #148

Hey Craig, sounds like you have a good thing going here and personaly I think you guys just need to move foward with it. Build it and they will come. I like the idea that an average joe like me can compete, I might just do that. I enjoy setting up my anvil and trying different things when I get home. Turn on my radio and pop open a beer and just have a good time. Sounds like it would be a good time well spent to set aside one time a year to compete and hang out with you guys.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 23 Mar 2007 03:29 #149

  • George Geist
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Craig,
As to your earlier post. No need at all for you to be self deprecating. In the 10 years I held an AFA card you were the best president they ever had. Trying to lead a dysfunctional group like that is not for the faint hearted.

Your accomplishments as a competitor are well known as are your successes in several businesses, and probably many other things that we don't know about.

It is true that there are a few highly educated men on these boards. With that sometimes comes a degree of condescending arrogance. You are not only as good as but better than all of them. Don't let them intimidate you with a lot of $5 words

You are what these guys all want to be. For that you have my respect.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 23 Mar 2007 04:37 #150

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I was in my first competition this year here in Denmak. Was a lot of fun and I learned a lot. Unfortunatly for me I live over here, not in the States where I could take advantage of the WCB. After retiring as a Sergeant Major from the Army, I needed a focus in life. I found that and am now working to next year's competition (at 51yrs old). A little late in life to start, but never too late to have fun. Best thing was I met the only other AFA member in Denmark at the competition. Now he is going to work with me some so I can get a little better. I don't have aspects of being as good a Craig or others, but I will get better and have fun.

The WCB is a chapter of the AFA. If a chapter of the AFA wants to run the event and can do it in a professional mannor, why not? The event is still "in house" because the WCB is a chapter of the AFA. The AFA still have some input if needed. The ability to attend a competition with only your hand tools is great - that's the way it is done here. I was glad I didn't have to load up my "shop".

I think it is good the AFA leadership is asking questions, but don't be afraid to move ahead. This is somewhat like when I moved from Idaho to Denmark. For the first couple years I spent too much time looking back at what I had left behind and not looking forward to see what I could find. Sure it is good to look back to see where you came from and mistakes made, but if you never look ahead and step out to some new, you will never grow and maybe miss out on some great chances in life.

If the WCB goes under or fails, it wouldn't be hard for the AFA to step back in, dust off the competition plan and drive on, but if they succeed who knows what they can achieve. On the same line - who knows what the AFA can achieve if they let the WCB chapter of the AFA run the one yearly AFA competition?

I know not every AFA member has e-mail, but of those who do why don't the AFA e-mail out an opinion poll and see what the membership has to say? This would give some idea. Or get opinions from the different chapters what their membership thinks.

Mikel
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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