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Poll: Should the AFA turn the national championship and team selection over to the WCB?

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TOPIC: WCB proposal to the AFA

WCB proposal to the AFA 12 Mar 2007 01:30 #1

  • Gary_Miller
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I moved this here at the request of the Baron.

AndrewCJF wrote:
QUOTE BY GARY MILLER: you must of not got the correct facts or you would think other wise. All the WCB wants to do is make the convention the Blacksmith finals.

Gary,
AndrewCJF wrote:
Why don't you trust the rules committee? They already reviewed and discussed at great length the proposal of the WCB and voted it down.
I think there is two many "Holy Cows" amongest the committee. Some have been at it for so many years that a change in format is not even something that should be looked at. Mr.McLane quickly brought this up in he update to the BOD and quickly ended it without any discussion. I don't think he even wanted it discussed at all.
AndrewCJF wrote:
If there's a need for the AFA contest to change, why not do it from within the AFA?
Last I saw the WCB is a chapter within the AFA. Therefore it is coming from within the AFA. There is also alot of members in the AFA who think it a good idea.
AndrewCJF wrote:
Why did the AFA Board appoint two principles of the for-profit WCB to negotiate for the AFA when the AFA's own rules committee had already decided that the AFA should not have any involvement with the WCB?
Because the members of the BOD, who run the AFA, thought it was important enough to look into. The rules committer has no right to decide who the AFA should be involved it. Its the BODs responsability. The BOD decided when they accecpted the WCB as a chapter.
AndrewCJF wrote:
Furthermore, the motion to form a new committee was made by a principle of the for-profit WCB who sits on the BoD.
Yes it was. However as a member of the BOD he has the right and responsibility to his chapter to make motions that are of a concern to his chapter. Furthermore the WCB stated they did not care who was on the committee only that a committee be formed. The BOD approved the recommendations for committee members that were in the motion.
AndrewCJF wrote:
This is certainly a conflict of interest and could constitute a less-than-arms-length operation under the laws governing non-profits. This could result in serious legal ramifications for the AFA and possibly jeopardize our not-for-profit status, and this is just the tip of the icberg….
I think not. But if you think other wise. Its your responsability as President Elect to research it out so that the AFA does not jeopardize our non profit status.
AndrewCJF wrote:
For instance, all AFA members that would like to compete in what is now the AFAs contest would be forced to pay dues to the WCB and pay to travel and compete in qualifiers. In theory, this is a non-profit forcing its members to join a for-profit to compete?!?!
I would place this all in the cost of wanting to compete. Kind of like the cost of wanting to be certified.
AndrewCJF wrote:
Have you actually read the detailed proposal of the WCB to the AFA? The information that you are posting on this board is not what was laid out in the WCB plan.
No I have not. My information comes from the breifing provided by the WCB, information talking to WCB members, and information from my BOD Rep..

However just for your I will get my hands on the proposal and let you know what I really think.
AndrewCJF wrote:
NOW LET’S BE REALLY CLEAR HERE: I am not in any way against the WCB in and of itself. However, I do not feel, based on the unsolicited proposal the WCB presented to the AFA that it is in the best interest of the AFA to turn over or outsource its long established contest for another company’s benefit….as the Rules Committee already decided. If there is a need to outsource the contest, where is the AFAs Request for Proposal (RFP)?
Since when is a proposal to change something by a AFA chapter in good standings not proper?
Since when does a committee appointed by the BOD have more power than the BOD?
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 13 Mar 2007 02:22 #2

  • Craig Trnka
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Gary,
All very good points. I have the proposal that we sent to the BoD if you would like me to send it to you, or any one else for that matter. Rick had made some good suggestions on how to make the committee work a little smoother and we are going to try that.

Craig Trnka
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 05:33 #3

  • Gary_Miller
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Andrew

I told you I would get back to you this issue once I got my hands on the proposal and could study it. So here you go.

To my understanding here is the current procedure for AFA competition and the selection of the American Farriers Team.

1. One competition is held during the year in which the American Farriers Team is selected from amongst the competitors.
2. The AFA Rules Committee selects what shoes will be forged at the competition.
3. Presents the shoes to the BOD who approves the shoes.
4. The AFA Rules Committee along with volunteers runs the competition.
5. The participants in the competition have to supply all their own tools and equipment. Which means hauling everything across country or finding someone locally who will lone out the equipment.
6. The competitors’ pay and entry fee and purchase propane to be used during the competition.
7. Competitors compete all at once which means they can’t watch the other competing or those who are spectators may not be able to watch some due to distance. (I know for me it was disappointing when I could not get close enough to see some of my favorite competitors)

I’m sure there maybe more but I think you get the idea. If I left something out that maybe important feel free to interject.

The WCB proposal.

1. WCB facilitates the competition at the convention.
2. The convention competition becomes the “National Championship” with competitors (40 in all) being selected due to their standings after 5 other competitions across the country.
3. AFA Guidelines for Evaluating Farrier Competitions are uses at all WCB competitions.
4. AFA Rules Committee Chair or a designated member of the rules Committee serves as an auditor of score sheets and points tracking at each sanctioned competition.
5. WBC selects and provides 1 judge at each competition and 2 at the national Championship. The Rules committee approves the judges.
6. WCB provides all equipment except basic hand tools.
7. Competition is done is heats of ten allowing other competitors and spectators to get up close at the competition.
8. The AFA will be able to free up time and money. Which will allow the AFA to put more focus on their mission statement of education.
9. The American Farriers Team is selected in a more equitable selection process.

That’s the proposal in a nutshell. I’m sure if I left anything out or stated something incorrectly that the WCB will correct it for me.

Andrew
I ask you or any one else to honestly tell me how this proposal by the WCB could be bad for the AFA. From what I see it’s a no brainier. The WCB puts in all the time, and money. While still allowing the AFA to dictate the rules of the completion.

Those Farriers who like/want to compete have more venues in which to do so.

The American Farriers Team is selected from the top 40 Farriers, across the nation, according to an ac***ulated point system.

The only thing that could go wrong here is the AFA BOD not accepting the proposal.


Andrew what do you think now?
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 12:33 #4

  • AndrewCJF
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Gary,

I'll be glad to send you the questions I have, maybe you can answer them since nobody else has been able to.

I could not find your contact info in the AFA print directory, please send me your email address to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

THanks, Andrew.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 12:40 #5

  • Rick Burten
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Gary,

The "top 40" number is incorrect. From my conversations with Craig, the WCB used that number because they thought that is what the AFA wanted. They are more than willing and able to up that number accordingly.

The competitors at Convention will still have to pay a Convention registration fee, so that income is not lost to the AFA, and their spouses, SO's, etc will also pay a fee for attending Convention, just as they do now, so that revenue stream will continue.

Provisions have been made for foreign competitors to compete at convention, just as they do now.

Competitors would still have to be members of the AFA to compete at convention or for a spot on the team, just as is now required.

I think I got all that right, but since Craig is participating on the boards, he will correct me if I'm stating something incorrectly.


On a different but related subject, perhaps someone can explain to me why, if we are going to name a "second alternate" to the Team, that person does not also get a Team jacket. We give one to each team member and the 1st alternate, but give only lip service to the 2nd alternate. Seems to me, if we're going to name a 2nd alternate, s/he should be accorded the same respect as everyone else. YMMV

Rick
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 13:09 #6

  • Gary_Miller
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AndrewCJF wrote:
Gary,

I'll be glad to send you the questions I have, maybe you can answer them since nobody else has been able to.

I could not find your contact info in the AFA print directory, please send me your email address to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

THanks, Andrew.
Andrew

Why not ask you questions here?

That way others with the same question will get them answered as well. Or if I can't answer them someone else maybe able to.

I'm defenatly not an expert on this subject, and I'm not part of the WBC, nor do I compete. I'm just and AFA member who thinks this is a good idea.

Never the less I sent you an e-mail with my address.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 13:30 #7

  • Gary_Miller
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Rick I know you up on this. So there is no need for me to comment. However for the sake of others who may not know. I'm going to post some comments.
Rick Burten wrote:
The "top 40" number is incorrect. From my conversations with Craig, the WCB used that number because they thought that is what the AFA wanted. They are more than willing and able to up that number accordingly.
I just took my information off of the proposal. Since a proposal is not a contract then nothing is firm and all can be change to the benifit of both parties concerned.
Rick Burten wrote:
The competitors at Convention will still have to pay a Convention registration fee, so that income is not lost to the AFA, and their spouses, SO's, etc will also pay a fee for attending Convention, just as they do now, so that revenue stream will continue.
Good point.
Rick Burten wrote:
Provisions have been made for foreign competitors to compete at convention, just as they do now.
Just for others information. Directly from the proposal.

There will be appoximately 15 lottery spots for foreign comperitors to keep the international involvement in the year end. The points will carry over into the National Championship and the classes at the National Championship will be worth double points to create added excitement. A foreign competitor could win all classes at the National Championship but would unlikely win the year end award unless they made it to the regional contests. Foreign competitors would only be allowed to compete at the National Championship it they were living outside the USA.
Rick Burten wrote:
On a different but related subject, perhaps someone can explain to me why, if we are going to name a "second alternate" to the Team, that person does not also get a Team jacket. We give one to each team member and the 1st alternate, but give only lip service to the 2nd alternate. Seems to me, if we're going to name a 2nd alternate, s/he should be accorded the same respect as everyone else. YMMV
This don't sound right to me ether. Does this person not practice with the team, and attend all the functions the team needs to just incase. Sounds to me like they should have a Team jacket as well. I think the AFA could afford to purchase a Jacket for all team members.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 13:56 #8

  • Craig Trnka
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Rick,
The reason there is two alternates listed is because there is a huge amount of attrition on the Team. They spend approxiamately $12,000.00 of they're own money not including 30 some odd days missed of work. It's more of an anouncement of who would be next in line if someone fell off pace. The budget really dosen't allow for a second alternate. The team budget is somewhat of a shoestring budget. Every association they do a clinic for they are forced to auction items and beg, borrow, and steal to make ends meet. The team in its self is a whole new subject of a relationship between the AFA and the WCB.

Talk soon

Craig Trnka
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 20:20 #9

  • Rick Burten
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Thanks for the info Craig.

Regardless, if we(the AFA)are going to name someone to the team as an alternate, then we damn sure ought to be treating him/her like a team member. And, If the attrition is that high, then if someone quits the team during the year they are on the team, philosophically, why should they keep the jacket? Further, instead of giving a new jacket each year to a returning Team member, why not do it like is done with HS and College letter jackets? After the first jacket, award numerals for each year someone makes the team.

And, don't the competitors who want to be on the team, sign an agreement regarding team practices, travel, etc? None of these folks are "rookies" and know or should know, full well, the costs of involvement with the team.

Oh the price one pays for glory.........

Rick
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 14 Mar 2007 23:37 #10

  • AndrewCJF
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QUOTE FROM GARY:

Andrew,

Why not ask you questions here?

That way others with the same question will get them answered as well. Or if I can't answer them someone else maybe able to.


Gary,

You have received my questions by now and can see that they are quite lengthy. If you feel it would help, go ahead and post what I sent you.

Thanks again, Andrew.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 02:58 #11

  • Gary_Miller
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AndrewCJF wrote:
Gary,

You have received my questions by now and can see that they are quite lengthy. If you feel it would help, go ahead and post what I sent you.

Thanks again, Andrew.[/COLOR]
Andrew

As I stated in my e-mail to you I did recieve the proposal with your questions. As you stated they are quite lengthly however they are very good questions and need some type of answer. I forwarded a copy to Craig Trnka to help get the answers. Once I recieve his input I will compile the answers and post them here if possable.

I do have one question for you. From the questions you sent me and your posts here. It seems that you are totaly against the WCB altogether. Why is this?

Thank You
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 12:21 #12

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Gary,

I am not against the WCB at all, I think it's a great idea. I just don't see the need for them to take over the AFA Contest.

Questions are questions. These questions need to be answered before a decision can be made either way. How could anyone make decision on a matter of this magnitude without the answers to these questions?

My questions are not against the WCB, they are in the interest of the AFA and our legal obligation, federally as a non-profit and to the membership, to do due diligence on this unsolicited proposal.

THanks, Andrew.
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 14:09 #13

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Rick,
I feel the same way about the team. If they say they are going then they should go. In the past people would check the box then see who was on it and then drop off if it was not a team they felt comfortable with. I think the real issue is one you brought up years ago in Ontario. Is the team a marketing tool that the AFA is using wisely? Is the entrie AFA behind or even believe in the Team? The Team is in a place where they need more funds but does the AFA want to put up more funds? You are right the price of fame is high, and most everybody who makes it on that Team knows it. Being on the Team is a huge life lesson and the character it builds is priceless. It is a fraternity that farriers feel a sense of belonging even long after they have been on and past it.
Craig
"I have never seen a barefoot trimmer that was barefoot." Me
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 14:29 #14

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Andrew,
You say the words "take over" that says a lot. The FIA runs the AFA market place for the AFA during the convention. They don't want to take the market place from the convention. The FIA has streamlined the marketplace to the point that it dosen't matter who is in control of the AFA the marketplace is a no brainer.
We are at the point where we shoe for this old farmer that has a 200 pound haybuddin and you want it and the farmer dosen't use it. The farmer dosen't want to sell it to you because he dosen't know what it is worth. you want it because you would love to use it. It continues to sit in the shed until the farmer dies and it is sold at auction.
You must think that the WCB wants to take the AFA convention and make millions of dollars that the AFA will surely miss out on. The WCB feels that there dosen't need to be 4 years of turmoil figuring out which outfit is the best until we have another BWFA, Guild, or barefooter assoc. We want to be a part of the AFA. The competitors want to be a part of the AFA. It's simple man we do it just like the FIA did it on the marketplace. The contest has been put on for more than thirty years and they have never owned a forge or an anvil or a vise. It's not like you are taking a risk. If the WCB fails you have everybody haul their rigs thousands of miles like they did the last 30 years.

Craig Trnka
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RE:WCB proposal to the AFA 15 Mar 2007 14:37 #15

  • Gary_Miller
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Where can I find information about the "World Champion Blacksmith Competition" held in calgary durning the Stampede?

Details, History, Logo, How its deterimined who competes, Organization responsable for over seeing, setup, and sponsership, and rules.

I went to the Stampede web site and could find nothing except past results and a discription of the event.

Googled it and came up with nothing.

Help
Gary Miller, PF

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