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TOPIC: As the bird flies so come the reports

RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 08 Mar 2007 13:49 #31

  • vthorseshoe
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DELETE THE PAST AND YOU ARE BOUND TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES AGAIN IN THE FUTURE !!!

We need a recorded history for folks to go back and re-read what has happened in the past.
It is imperative to keep history.
This is HOW WE PREVENT MAKING SIMILAR MISTAKES AGAIN, or improve on previous accomplishments of others.

Your not old enough to remember the book burnings that went on because folks wanted to eliminate words/wording/phrases/idea's/concepts of folks who had different points of view.

TO DELETE HISTORY is a crime against society.

I know I am taking this beyond your actual intent Phil, but we have folks in the world, the KKK in the USA, for example, who are trying to convince folks the Holacost(spelling) never took place and they are doing this by changing history.

The AFA politics of the past are the lessons to learn from for the future. Here on this bulletin board it is a library and archives for folks to go back and remember or learn or be able to get an exact statement and correct an incorrect statement.

The only negativety is what we ourselves allow to exhist in our minds. It is this nucleous that we allow to grow and fester that causes problems for others, taking history out of its origonal form or out of context is what causes problems. Not history itself.

just my thougfhts
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 08 Mar 2007 14:52 #32

  • Gary_Miller
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Letting go and forgeting the past is a great concept and easier said than done.

Things posted on this forum are archived and often read by simply searching for topics. So even if we let it go the forum has not let it go.

I can totaly understand Andrews concern.

One way everyone on this forum can help forget about the past is to think of the negative comments they have posted and go delete them.


What was said during the election is ether factual, and opion, or and observation. Deleting those statements would be wrong as it would show that those who made the statements had no crediability. However if the one who made the statement has found that the statement was false or incorrect in it whole or part. All one needs to do is appologize on the form stating why the statement was incorrect. As well as an personal appologe to the one wronged. That is how wounds are healed.

If the one who the statement was about still believe it is wrong then all they need to do is post a rebutal on why it was incorrect. And then show by thier actions that it was wrong.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 08 Mar 2007 17:32 #33

Is this comment Ron made true about Andrew, if it is not then in my opinion Ron owes Andrew an apology.

Ron K. said "I do wish you would listen to the people you interact with more. Every time I turn around when talking to the membership they say “anyone but Elesbre” over and over. When I ask why they tell me their individual horror story about how you have insulted or ignored them or someone they know.

Every time he turned around while talking to membership he has recieved this feedback? I find that very hard to believe.

I have met Andrew a few times and also talked about Andrew with AFA members. I have never gotten that impression about Andrew or heard this from other AFA members. My impression of Andrew is all positive, hard working, careing and dedicated. He has never treated me with disrespect. The last certification exam I attended he took the time to talk things over in a positive and friendly manner.

Never met Ron, my opinion of Ron from discussions on this forum have been negative, however anyone that has met Ron tells me he is a great guy.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 01:43 #34

  • Gary_Miller
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Is this comment Ron made true about Andrew, if it is not then in my opinion Ron owes Andrew an apology.
In this instance the only opion that matters is Ron's and Andrew's. I think Ron answered the question already. In his last post. That should be good enough.
Phil Armitage wrote:
Every time he turned around while talking to membership he has recieved this feedback? I find that very hard to believe.
It maybe hard to believe. However it Ron's preception based on the information he recieved from talking with others.
Phil Armitage wrote:
Never met Ron, my opinion of Ron from discussions on this forum have been negative, however anyone that has met Ron tells me he is a great guy.
I met Ron and Rick both at the convention. In my opion they are striaght forward all around guys, just like they are here. I think one could learn allot from ether one of them if they just took the time to listen with an open mind. Something I found lacking with most of the BOD and the EC.
Gary Miller, PF

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Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 06:56 #35

  • T.N. Trosin
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Gary_Miller wrote:
I think one could learn allot from ether one of them if they just took the time to listen with an open mind. Something I found lacking with most of the BOD and the EC.

Just Unreal.
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 13:55 #36

Gary_Miller wrote:
In this instance the only opion that matters is Ron's and Andrew's. I think Ron answered the question already. In his last post. That should be good enough.

Well that is just silly. I like to think everyones opinion matters. Seems like that was the point Ron was makeing that everyone's opinion matters.

Ron's circle of influence must of been pretty biased if he only heard bad things about Andrew. I call it haveing your finger on the pulse.

When your trying to figure out what the majority thinks or wants and your attempting to get your finger on the pulse, best to be pretty opened minded and talk to everyone in and out of your circle, not just who agrees with you.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 14:27 #37

  • Gary_Miller
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Well that is just silly. I like to think everyones opinion matters. Seems like that was the point Ron was makeing that everyone's opinion matters.
Yes Phil everyones opinion matters.

HOWEVER IN THIS CASE IT IS PERSONAL BETWEEN RON AND ANDREW AND YOUR OPINION DON'T MATTER WORTH C R A P!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course I don't expect you to understand/agree so I'll move on off this subject with you after this post. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Phil Armitage wrote:
Ron's circle of influence must of been pretty biased if he only heard bad things about Andrew.
May have been that Ron didn't talk to enough guys to get a good feel of what Andrew is really like. However he did talk to enough to form an opinion. No matter how others thing it was right or wrong. It was Rons opinion at the time based on the information he had at the time. And thats all that matters.
Phil Armitage wrote:
When your trying to figure out what the majority thinks or wants and your attempting to get your finger on the pulse, best to be pretty opened minded and talk to everyone in and out of your circle, not just who agrees with you.
On thing I have learned from my limited medical knowledge is this. When the pusle is weak it really hard to find. and when your almost dead the pusle is really weak.

The AFA had a weak pulse and was about to die. I think Ron's finger was on the strongest pulse he could find. The pulse of change. The pulse of needing integrety, openness, and honesty.

From the out come of the election it looks if alot of members of the AFA thought so themselves.

Its now upto the EC and BOD to get the organization revived. Hopefully Andrew and Dick can get the EC moving in the right direction. And with the new BOD restructuring comming up the whole organization will get back on track and we will see lots of good things happening soon.

Only time will tell.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 14:37 #38

Gary_Miller wrote:
I met Ron and Rick both at the convention. In my opion they are striaght forward all around guys, just like they are here. I think one could learn allot from ether one of them if they just took the time to listen with an open mind. Something I found lacking with most of the BOD and the EC.

When you spoke about "healing" in your previous post, I guess I envisioned something different than this might follow.

I, too, visited with Ron and Rick at convention, and--yes--they're straightforward and just like they are here, and--yes--one can learn a lot from them if they take the time to listen with an open mind.

I also found most of the BOD and EC members to be the same way. How many did you sit down and visit with and listen to with an open mind?
~~Danvers

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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 14:37 #39

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T.N. Trosin wrote:
Just Unreal.
You right Tom it was unreal how the EC and the BOD acted during the BOD meeting.

I work with eleven year old Boy Scouts who get along better.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 14:44 #40

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danverschild wrote:
How many did you sit down and visit with and listen to with an open mind?
I sat through the whole BOD meeting with a open mind. They say actions speak louder then words. In the BOD meeting I heard and saw grown men who could not even come to agrements on simple things. Its a good thing the have the palimtarian there or nothing would get done in a civilized manner.

Like I said before I have Boy Scoouts who act and can make decisions togeather in a more civilized manner.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 14:48 #41

Gary_Miller wrote:
Hopefully Andrew and Dick can get the EC moving in the right direction. And with the new BOD restructuring comming up the whole organization will get back on track and we will see lots of good things happening soon.

Now that's more what I envisioned when you spoke about healing! Good on ya!
~~Danvers

Danvers Child, CJF

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“Watch what people are cynical about, and you will often discover what they lack." General George S. Patton Jr.

"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than...
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 14:53 #42

Gary, your response to me did not appear to be to civil, but that is okay. I piped in because I hate seeing an archive of negative comments just exist on this forum without any explanations or closure.

Why do you think this issue is personal? If this were true, then it would not be on a public forum now would it? I am just shareing my positive view about Andrew. I also kept my comments positive about Ron. The negative judgement we have of others on this forum is unfortunate. I think this is one of the down falls of an online forum. It would be great if we could all just get along and realise that we really do not know the other guy just by chatting on this forum.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 14:57 #43

Gary_Miller wrote:
I sat through the whole BOD meeting with a open mind. They say actions speak louder then words. In the BOD meeting I heard and saw grown men who could not even come to agrements on simple things. Its a good thing the have the palimtarian there or nothing would get done in a civilized manner.

Like I said before I have Boy Scoouts who act and can make decisions togeather in a more civilized manner.

Yes. The BOD meetings have been that way for a long time. You should have seen them before we got a parlimentarian involved! So thank God we've got the BOD downsized, and maybe that will take care of that particular problem.

BUT... if you get each one of those 50+ individuals out of the weird environment of the BOD meeting and visit with them one-on-one or in small groups (as you and I did with Rick and Ron), you'll find that they're almost all going to come across just as you described R&R: as straightforward, all-around guys that you can learn a lot from if you take the time to listen with an open mind.

I don't understand it. I've tried to figure it out for years. You take a bunch of guys that can get along and be productive in a clinic, that can get along famously in a bar, and that are all passionate about their chosen profession and their professional organization... put 'em in a BOD meeting, and they all disintegrate. Get with them one-on-one and you'll find that they're all pretty close to agreement on where we need to go, but they can't agree on how to get there and can't figure out how to find agreement/consensus.
~~Danvers

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"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than...
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 09 Mar 2007 16:04 #44

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Gary...just curious.... what flavor is the kool-aid?????? :D

Bo
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RE:As the bird flies so come the reports 10 Mar 2007 02:28 #45

  • T.N. Trosin
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Gary_Miller wrote:
You right Tom it was unreal how the EC and the BOD acted during the BOD meeting.

I work with eleven year old Boy Scouts who get along better.

Sight me an example please.
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