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TOPIC: Vet Practice Laws

Vet Practice Laws 12 Jan 2007 21:01 #1

  • George Geist
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
Most of you by now have read the things I have written concerning my contempt of the revised definitions of state vet practice laws and the adverse effects it has on the entire horse industry.

I notice now that the British Horseshoers Union is talking about this on their website as well. Seems the UK also has a problem with this. www.ukhsu.com

Could perhaps some of our British friends out there comment on just what in the world is going on out there?
George
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 12 Jan 2007 21:32 #2

George Geist wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Most of you by now have read the things I have written concerning my contempt of the revised definitions of state vet practice laws and the adverse effects it has on the entire horse industry.

I notice now that the British Horseshoers Union is talking about this on their website as well. Seems the UK also has a problem with this. www.ukhsu.com

Could perhaps some of our British friends out there comment on just what in the world is going on out there?
George
i shod horses before any laws seen it all happen nothing gets better just more power to a few who think they know better than a hard working farrier most of the time they dont work them selfs then the others want a pice of what you have your never stop them just leave them be your only get a heart job stressing if you shot the lot some one will replace them
i get well stressed to see what has happened over the years i pay 260$ a year just to shoe get nothing back have no say we created a white elephant those that can do just do those that cant talk about what should be
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 13 Jan 2007 13:32 #3

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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George Geist wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I notice now that the British Horseshoers Union is talking about this on their website as well. Seems the UK also has a problem with this.

Could perhaps some of our British friends out there comment on just what in the world is going on out there?
George

I'm not convinced that this is a big issue over here and below is a list of comments on legislative proposals in relation to current Act and as suggested by the Worshipful Company of Farriers.

1) Provision for temporary visitors (Needed to cope with racing, polo, eventing etc – will have to be partially incorporated to accommodate EU Directive 2005/36)

2) Redefinition of farriery to include radical trimming (Address welfare problems caused by Strasser / equine podiatrists – might be possible to move towards under new Animal Health & Welfare Bills)

3) Inclusion of fitness to practise as well as serious misconduct in a professional respect (Would enable requirement for bad farriers to retrain and provide for drink / drug problems) This issue is largely self correcting, in that those few farriers who are not fit to practice tend not to have any customers.

4) Make provision for mandatory continuous personal development and revalidation if wanted

5) Bring Disciplinary Procedures into line with modern thinking (Separate rule setting from rule enforcement) The FRC solicitors have made it clear that the Disciplinary Procedures are perfectly legal. There is a serious need for reform but this can be accomplished without legislation.


6) Provision to fine as well as or instead of suspend for serious misconduct considered no longer necessary as it is perfectly possible to issue a caution or a nominal period of suspension in the interests of horse owners.

7) Revise Council Membership

8) Increase maximum penalty for illegal farriery (Current limit £1000) No need. The bill for costs often exceeds the fine and so the penalty is often very significant.
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 14 Jan 2007 04:38 #4

  • beslagsmed
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
8) Increase maximum penalty for illegal farriery (Current limit £1000) No need. The bill for costs often exceeds the fine and so the penalty is often very significant.

About this part - do you have much problem with uncertified farrier working?

How are you dealing with the EU thing - as in I am certified here in Denmark, can I come and work in England or do I first need to be certified there?

It is going this direction here and just wondering how you all deal with these issues.

Mikel
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 14 Jan 2007 08:51 #5

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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I wouldn't say its a huge problem and horse owners tend to be aware of the requirements to practice and they know how to find a farrier in the first place and to check he is registered and licenced under the act.

From time to time there are prosecutions and there was one just over a year ago about 60 miles from me and you will see from the report that this was the 2nd offence for this individual. The horse owner was also issued with a formal warning for failing by engaging a person who was not licenced :-

http://frc.gotadsl.co.uk:7000/frc/News.asp?page=pressreleases&ID=70

You will also see that if they don't pay their retention fees then they are taken off the register and no longer able to practice lawfully:

http://frc.gotadsl.co.uk:7000/frc/News.asp?page=pressreleases&ID=77

And finally if you look at this link you will see what is required if you want to be endorsed as a farrier and come from another EEC member country:

How to make an EEA Application:
If you have training or experience or both in an EEA member state you may be able to make an EEA Application. To apply please contact the offices of the FRC, and request an application form and 'EEA Guide to Registration' Booklet.

Requirements
Certain qualifications are currently recognised by the Council for registration purposes (see above Approved Qualifications). If you have one of these you may apply directly for registration.

If you hold a 'Certificate of Experience' in farriery issued in accordance with EC Directive 99/42 then you may also apply directly for registration.

If you hold an EEA farriery qualification that is not recognised by the Council you may also apply but will have to undergo a period of training or pass the DipWCF examination before being allowed to Register.

You can apply directly for registration by completing the application form and submitting it with the necessary do***entation (original qualification certificate or Certificate of Experience) with the Registration Fee, currently £65.00. If you are applying on the basis of holding a qualification that is not recognised by the Council you will need to provide details of your qualification, length of study and course content in order to prove eligibility. These will be verified by the Council and the fee for this is £335.00.
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 14 Jan 2007 20:54 #6

  • SlowShoe
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Thomas,
I dont know if its just because I am an American or not, but I read all those "Found Guilty for Illegal Farriery" articles on that page. They seem to be ridiculous in the fact that not one claims of any damages incurred to horse or owner. Its kind of sad they have undercover agents assigned to busting these guys. I could understand investigations when damages are occurring, but this is nothing more than Revenueing.
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 14 Jan 2007 21:06 #7

  • George Geist
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Allright so are you guys saying that any changes to the British Vet Practice Laws will have no effect on you guys because of your rights under the Farrier Laws licensing and so forth?

I'm trying to find out if these changes will wreak the same havoc that they have on several American states.

Nonetheless seems like all these governments seem to have the same agendas.
George
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 16 Jan 2007 08:31 #8

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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SlowShoe wrote:
Thomas,
I dont know if its just because I am an American or not, but I read all those "Found Guilty for Illegal Farriery" articles on that page. They seem to be ridiculous in the fact that not one claims of any damages incurred to horse or owner. Its kind of sad they have undercover agents assigned to busting these guys. I could understand investigations when damages are occurring, but this is nothing more than Revenueing.
As we all know when a horse is trimmed and shod by someone who doesn't have good training and appropriate experience its NEVER a good job. Sometimes it might be so inept and barbaric that there's sufficient evidence for a prosecution for cruelty or causing unnecessary suffering and certainly there have been cases here where there's been both a fine and a prosecution.

However more often the effect is long term on the horse and the (unsuspecting/unknowledgeable) owner is just an innocent victim of having hired someone to do a job who actually isn't able to do it.

In the UK our farrier regulations exist to protect the horse from such acts and violations and also to afford the horse owner with reassurances by ensuring and enforcing standards of competence which includes specific training and experience.

We don't have "undercover agents" rather we have the facility to be able to check whether someone is licenced or not and if they're not we actually have a reporting mechanism and simple legislation without the burden of proof required for such as cruelty cases that fines them and stops them.

So most of these cases come to light when a horse is seen by a knowledgeable person who recognises that what has been done isn't to the standards one should expect and then an enquiry ensues and the associated discovery that the person who described themselves as a "professional farrier" was actually some self-trained or minimally trained iron hanger or trimmer.

The cost of persuing the perpetrator and securing evidence to fine frequently outweighs the value of the fine (in common with a lot of legal case-work), so its not revenue raising at all and isn't intended to be. The purpose is horse welfare.

So its there as damage limitation to horse, owner and to good competent professional farriers.

I've posted before about our cultural differences with regard to legislation etc but personally I'm delighted that horse owners here don't have to run the gambit of trying to work out who is just an iron hanger and which farriery school is run by the inept and providing minimal training etc.

Its my considered view that horses, owners and real professional farriers have nothing to fear and everything to gain by such regulation.
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 16 Jan 2007 08:33 #9

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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George Geist wrote:
Allright so are you guys saying that any changes to the British Vet Practice Laws will have no effect on you guys because of your rights under the Farrier Laws licensing and so forth?
Yes indeed
I'm trying to find out if these changes will wreak the same havoc that they have on several American states.
I'd say it would be totally different there where there are currently no regulations nor governing bodies that can control standards etc.
Nonetheless seems like all these governments seem to have the same agendas.
Not my personal experience at all
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RE:Vet Practice Laws 16 Jan 2007 14:21 #10

I agree Josh.

I really hate to see this country move away from personal responsibilty into the arms of "Big Brother".

What goes on between the farrier and the client is their business and no one elses. I feel that way about much of the business here in the US, though it's unfortunately been regulated to death. Imagine how much smarter we'd be as a nation if we knew we had no one to pass the buck (or the bill!) to!

No doubt there are hard questions to be answered as to what should or should not be regulated, but honestly, if we're not careful, the war fought for independence may well have been in vain.

Just my opinion. :)
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