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TOPIC: Transparency

RE:Transparency 17 Nov 2006 17:15 #16

  • Rick Burten
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What the hell does this have to do with having policies and guidelines for running a national farrier association? Even you have guidelines and policies for running your one man business. Or maybe you don't. Quien Sabe? But to try and equate the policies and guidelines necessary for running an organization such as the AFA to what you refer to as "the business of hoofcare" is an exercise in mental mas-tu-r-bation.

Rick
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RE:Transparency 17 Nov 2006 17:29 #17

Rick Burten wrote:
What the hell does this have to do with having policies and guidelines for running a national farrier association? Even you have guidelines and policies for running your one man business. Or maybe you don't. Quien Sabe? But to try and equate the policies and guidelines necessary for running an organization such as the AFA to what you refer to as "the business of hoofcare" is an exercise in mental mas-tu-r-bation.

Rick

Rick, the need of communications is brought up frequently. Communications is not just one way (talking). It is also the art of listening, gaining understanding. Are you willing to listen to all in this trade, all hoof care providers? Trimmers, NB, traditional shoers, Vets, Trainers, Horse owners everyone involved. I think the AFA can better serve horses to have a policy that is more inclusive. Right now I see the AFA has the attitude of "My way or the highway". Are you running for President elect to protect tradition or listen. I have noticed that you are much more receptive to most of the existing leadership when it comes to new ideas and methods, this is great. I think this has a lot to do with setting policy, vision and attracting more members. If the AFA wants to educate farriers then they need much improvement. Things are changeing very fast, barefoot movement, NB and how lameness is treated. Lessiter Publications sees this and does a very good job understanding how to handle it. It may not be a formal association, however they have a highly respected farrier publication and orginization when it comes to farrier education. I see continueing education as one of the most important aspects of my buisness and I believe many farriers also feel the same way. If the AFA can change the image from the good ole boy network to farrier friendly then I think farriers will find them a valuable association to belong to.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Transparency 17 Nov 2006 18:12 #18

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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danverschild in gray

I get your point, but you know me well enough to know that I'm not any more likely to shut up than you would be.

As an interested observer of the human parade, it appears to me that more heated the exchanges, the more quotes from a dead German appear beneath your signature. Your forbearance and patience during these debates has doubtless been inspired by Friedrich's piety and well known admiration of womankind. :) Here's another one:
The doer alone learneth.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Transparency 17 Nov 2006 18:53 #19

  • Rick Burten
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Rick, Are you willing to listen to all in this trade, all hoof care providers? Trimmers, NB, traditional shoers, Vets, Trainers, Horse owners everyone involved.
Actually, I think my answer is, no, I'm not. I'm not willing to listen to the BUA or others of that ilk. As for the others you mention, I think it is safe to say that I regularly and routinely give ear to these groups.
I think the AFA can better serve horses to have a policy that is more inclusive. Right now I see the AFA has the attitude of "My way or the highway".
You're hung up on certification again Phil. Its not germane to this conversation.

Like I said, things are beginning to change. And its evident that this is the case.
Are you running for President elect to protect tradition or listen.
I'm running for President-elect to try and help right the ship of State.
[quiote]I have noticed that you are much more receptive to most of the existing leadership when it comes to new ideas and methods, this is great.[/quote]
Huh? What does this mean?
Things are changeing very fast, barefoot movement, NB and how lameness is treated. Lessiter Publications sees this and does a very good job understanding how to handle it.
Phil, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.
It may not be a formal association, however they have a highly respected farrier publication and orginization when it comes to farrier education.
Different product. Whacha' wanna' bet that Mr. Lessiter has some pretty specific policies and guidelines in place that are related to how Lessiter Publications conducts business?
I see continueing education as one of the most important aspects of my buisness and I believe many farriers also feel the same way. If the AFA can change the image from the good ole boy network to farrier friendly then I think farriers will find them a valuable association to belong to.
I think the AFA on a 'one-to-one' , vis-a-vis basis is quite farrier friendly. Sure there are some who seem to think they are the holiest of holy, but their numbers are few, and dwindle every day.

By the way, much of that continuing education you crave and say is out there(and I do acknowledge that it is), is brought to you by members of the AFA, a great percentage of whom, are certified. So remember, if you're going to dis the AFA and what it does, you are dissing, in many instances, those goold ole boys and girls who are contributing to your ongoing education.

I do agree we need to work on the image problems that are perceived by so many.

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:Transparency 17 Nov 2006 19:33 #20

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Phil Armitage in gray

Rick, the need of communications is brought up frequently.

This ain't Rick, but I don't think he'll mind my butting in.

Communications is not just one way (talking). It is also the art of listening, gaining understanding.

So far, so good.

Are you willing to listen to all in this trade, all hoof care providers?

If one accepts the proposition that some horses need shoeing and some don't, they why would any farrier's organization dignify anyone unwilling to advocate the shoeing of horses by calling them a "hoof care provider"?

Trimmers, NB, traditional shoers, Vets, Trainers, Horse owners everyone involved.

Nossir, trimmers are not part and parcel to any organization of farriers; furthermore, neither is any vet, trainer, or owner who denigrates farriery on the basis of personal prejudice and/or ignorance.

I think the AFA can better serve horses to have a policy that is more inclusive. Right now I see the AFA has the attitude of "My way or the highway".

Since the AFA is an organization devoted to farriery, it follows that trimmers, and anyone else in their camp, would not be included.

Are you running for President elect to protect tradition or listen.

Listen to whom? One listens to reason, one does not listen to the nattering of doofi.

I have noticed that you are much more receptive to most of the existing leadership when it comes to new ideas and methods, this is great. I think this has a lot to do with setting policy, vision and attracting more members. If the AFA wants to educate farriers then they need much improvement.

On this point we can agree: Start with anatomy and basic physics, the rest will follow.

Things are changeing very fast, barefoot movement, NB and how lameness is treated.

The barefoot movement, NB, and various protocols used to treat pathologies affecting the foot and lower leg are open to criticism.

Lessiter Publications sees this and does a very good job understanding how to handle it. It may not be a formal association, however they have a highly respected farrier publication and orginization when it comes to farrier education.

No disrespect to Lessiter Publications, but the primary concern of any slick rag is filling white space around advertising. Put another way, I don't think Lessiter Pubs is motivated by dedication to the proposition that assessing and addressing horses' needs are the basis of farriery.

I see continueing education as one of the most important aspects of my buisness and I believe many farriers also feel the same way.

I don't think continuing education is as important as primary education. If the AFA wants to get into the farrier education business, then equid anatomy and basic physics should be the primary subjects: What good is continuing education without a primary foundation?

If the AFA can change the image from the good ole boy network to farrier friendly then I think farriers will find them a valuable association to belong to.

Personally, I don't see the AFA as a "good 'ol boy" network, I see it as an unwieldy, top-heavy, outfit that's painted itself into a corner by virtue of it's inability to pass meaningful legislation on a timely basis. Damn near everyone in the trade knows that some kind of insurance is a priority matter for working farriers, but it ain't happened yet. Similarly, the creation of a demand for certification by advertising its benefits could be a boon to horse owners, but it ain't happened yet. Personally, I think there's some awful good folks involved in this election, but until/unless the legislative process is changed, all their good intentions are doomed to be drowned in a morass of divergent political agendas.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Transparency 17 Nov 2006 21:14 #21

I'm running for President-elect to try and help right the ship of State.
[quiote]I have noticed that you are much more receptive to most of the existing leadership when it comes to new ideas and methods, this is great.[/quote]
Huh? What does this mean?


My bad, I meant to say "I have noticed that you are much more receptive than most of the existing leadership when it comes to new ideas and methods.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Transparency 18 Nov 2006 03:28 #22

Gary_Miller wrote:
Danvers, an organization need policy's in place that dictate how buisness is to be conducted. If not the organization gets nothing done....
As of guidelines they are Ok in some situation where there is room for descretion. You see when you tell me its a guideline that means I have the choice to follow it or not to follow it.

Policys are firm and inmoveable.

Guideline are suggestions and movable.

Hey Gary,

I agree that organizations need to have policies in place, but I'm leary of what goes into policy and what goes into guidelines. Maybe it's that word you used, "dictate," that gets my backbone all short when I think about policies.... In any case, I think we're in agreement on the distinctions. As you indicate,

Policy is hard and fast, and you don’t deviate from it. You live by it. Therefore, you have to be damned careful that you don’t institute policy that you’re not willing to live by. It’s like an ultimatum.

Guidelines establish operating parameters and expectations. They provide people with an understanding of boundaries, limits, and expectations yet they allow flexibility and adjustment according to situations and extenuating circ*umstances.

Examples…

Suzy Snotnose, my oldest and nicest client, opens her checkbook and finds that her husband has used her last check. She says she’s sorry and she’ll get a check in the mail as soon as she goes home.
  • If I have a policy that payment is due upon completion of work, I fire her.
  • If I have a guideline that payment is due upon completion of work, I circle my address on my invoice.

Teri Tinytim, a great client, has a wreck on the way to the barn and doesn’t show for her appointment because of her concussion.
  • If I have a policy that I will charge a $50 fee for no-shows, I charge her and add insult to injury.
  • If I have guidelines that say clients may be charged a fee for no-shows, I send her a get well card and she bakes cookies the next time I’m there.

I'm chairing the addiblah committee for the AFA. I show up for a certification in Tennessee and find that all three of my committee members are there as well.
  • If I have a policy that says 1. The Board, the EC and any permanent or temporary committee or task force is required to post for the memberships review an agenda for every meeting and that agenda will include any and all supporting do***entation for any motion that is included for consideration. Verbal discussion is not considered by the Board as sufficient supporting do***entation. Arguments supporting any action must be submitted in writing for review by the membership along with the agenda for any meeting. The membership shall have the opportunity to submit written do***entation or argument against any action and those submissions must be reviewed by the group meeting of an issue prior to a decision being made. These agenda and supporting do***entation must be made available not less that 14 days in advance of a meeting and the arguments or do***entation opposed to an action must be received by the AFA’s headquarters 7 days in advance of the meeting. It is the ED’s responsibility to distribute any do***ents received to the appropriate parties in advance of any scheduled meeting. I say "hi" to my committee members.
  • If I have guidelines that say I am to do***ent my committee meeting and provide that do***entation, I take advantage of the situation and get things done for the organization.

Subsequently, I think that policy is intolerant and guidelines are tolerant, and I feel that policy should be reserved for compliance issues... the things that we shouldn't budge on. E.G., we won't tolerate consumption of alcoholic beverages on site while a certification test is in progress, etc.
~~Danvers

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RE:Transparency 18 Nov 2006 03:44 #23

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Your forbearance and patience during these debates has doubtless been inspired by Friedrich's piety and well known admiration of womankind. :)

I do better with the "admiration" than with the "piety." In any case, you, sir, are at the top of my hero list... You hail from the Great State, you unfailingly cut through the bs, you are a proven part-time Fertility God, and you even send me quotes from Freddy.
~~Danvers

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RE:Transparency 18 Nov 2006 16:20 #24

  • Gary_Miller
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danverschild]
Policy is hard and fast, and you don’ wrote:
Agree
danverschild wrote:
Guidelines establish operating parameters and expectations. They provide people with an understanding of boundaries, limits, and expectations yet they allow flexibility and adjustment according to situations and extenuating circ*umstances.
Agree

danverschild]
I'm chairing the addiblah committee for the AFA. I show up for a certification in Tennessee and find that all three of my committee members are there as well.

  • If I have a policy that says 1. The Board, the EC and any permanent or temporary committee or task force is required to post for the memberships review an agenda for every meeting and that agenda will include any and all supporting do***entation for any motion that is included for consideration. Verbal discussion is not considered by the Board as sufficient supporting do***entation. Arguments supporting any action must be submitted in writing for review by the membership along with the agenda for any meeting. The membership shall have the opportunity to submit written do***entation or argument against any action and those submissions must be reviewed by the group meeting of an issue prior to a decision being made. These agenda and supporting do***entation must be made available not less that 14 days in advance of a meeting and the arguments or do***entation opposed to an action must be received by the AFA’ wrote:
    I say "hi" to my committee members.
  • If I have guidelines that say I am to do***ent my committee meeting and provide that do***entation, I take advantage of the situation and get things done for the organization.
You have a good point here. So if I get what you are saying is that we need some flex ability so that we can take advantage of the situation. The way the above is written would forbid you from having a meeting because you did not submit an agenda.
So rewritting the Policy to state that: When possable an agenda should be submitted which allows the general membership to submit thier thoughts and conserns for the issues to be descussed. However the lack of a submitted agenda should not forbid a meeting to take place if the situation warrents as long as the minutes are posted with in 15 days of the meeting.
danverschild wrote:
Subsequently, I think that policy is intolerant and guidelines are tolerant, and I feel that policy should be reserved for compliance issues... the things that we shouldn't budge on. E.G., we won't tolerate consumption of alcoholic beverages on site while a certification test is in progress, etc.
Agree. I now see your point on the whole issue. If I understand correctly your saying that in the case of "Transparency" there needs to be guideline so there is some flexability due to the situations that are encountered. As well as volunteers need to be able to accomplish items when they have the time.


Gary
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RE:Transparency 18 Nov 2006 16:47 #25

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Phil Armitage wrote:
I argree with some of the things you say, however strict guidelines does not seem logical in the buisness of hoofcare.
Phil We are talking about office policy and guidelines in operating the association.
We are not talking about the diffrent asspects of Farrier Science here. Why are you so set on the AFA making an offical statement endorsing certin techneques or methods. Even though they maybe accepted there is still alot of variables that alot of farriers don't think are sound.
Take NB for example. Setting a wide web shoe back has it merits. However at the recent clinic I attended the clinition mentioned somethings that not only shot the concept out of the water but also the use of squire towed shoes. He talked about other methods that helped with breakover but also provided support. Though one may not totaly agree with what he said it got me to thinking. What he said had lots of merit.
So you see there is so much diffrent thinking that it would be impossable for the AFA or any other organization to endorse any shoeing protocal without alienating someone.


Gary

PS. Phil the certification is just a test with standards. Don't fight it just shoe to the standard. Get certified and then go back to work using any method you like that works for you and the horses you work with. GET OVER IT.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Transparency 20 Nov 2006 02:50 #26

Gary_Miller wrote:
PS. Phil the certification is just a test with standards. Don't fight it just shoe to the standard. Get certified and then go back to work using any method you like that works for you and the horses you work with. GET OVER IT.

I am not trying to fight it or change it. I get the part that this is a test of skills. How about adding to it?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Transparency 20 Nov 2006 03:05 #27

Phil Armitage wrote:
I am not trying to fight it or change it. I get the part that this is a test of skills. How about adding to it?

It has been added to... An Educational Endorsement was added. Then a Therapuetic Endorsement was added. And most recently the Certified Tradesman Farrier (CTF) was added.

The latest addition, the CTF, was specifically added to answer the wishes of the membership, who had expressed a desire to have an upper level component of the exam which didn't focus on applying handmade shoes.

It's possible that, in time, we will see more levels and/or endorsements, but for now, the offering is limited to one classification (IC), three levels of certification (CF, CTF, CJF), and two endorsements (Education & Therapuetic).
~~Danvers

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RE:Transparency 20 Nov 2006 03:21 #28

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Phil Armitage wrote:
I am not trying to fight it or change it. I get the part that this is a test of skills. How about adding to it?
Phil
OK fare enough.
So what would you add?
How do you propose it should be added?


Gary
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RE:Transparency 20 Nov 2006 03:27 #29

Gary_Miller wrote:
Phil
OK fare enough.
So what would you add?
How do you propose it should be added?


Gary

I propose the AFA looks into Natural Balance. I think adopting NB trimming principles would be a great start. NB has started a certification.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Transparency 20 Nov 2006 03:54 #30

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Phil Armitage wrote:
I propose the AFA looks into Natural Balance.
The AFA (the members that is)has looked at NB , each and everyone of us has came up with thier own conclusion about NB. The AFA as an association has no need to make an offical statement for or against.
Phil Armitage wrote:
I think adopting NB trimming principles would be a great start.
To my knowledge the AFA has not adopted any specific trimming principles. Why do they need to adopt NB principles now?
Phil Armitage wrote:
NB has started a certification.
That where the certification should be through the developer of the principle. No need for the AFA to do anything. If you want an NB certification go take the test.

If you want AFA CF, CTF, or CJF go take the test.


Gary
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