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TOPIC: T.N. Vs. Gary

RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 15:14 #31

  • IRNWKR_2
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Rick Burten wrote:
So, I again offer for discussion, the concept that attendence at a pre-certification clinic be made mandatory for anyone who wishes to stand for the exams. I think the cost should be either nominal or no cost, and that the fees for the actual certification should be raised sufficiently to cover costs incurred for pre-certification clinics.


Before they raise any cost they should standardize the rate just to cover the expenses of the examiner,testers and any office expense. It seems to be a money making deal for the AFA, but a loss for the hosting chapter.

Jason G.
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 17:20 #32

Gary_Miller wrote:
The point I hope to make is that the pre-cert was one month before the certification. One month is not enough time to fix those habits one may have in order to pass the test. Time management seemed to be the biggest problems I say at the Cert.

The pre-certs is a good thing however I think one needs to attend them more than once before he attempts the test and far enough out before the test that he can work on all the weak points and thier time management.

Hey Gary,

When we first set up the pre-cert clinics, we attempted to use a model similar to the one you describe. What we envisioned was that a chapter would set up a two-day pre-cert clinic three months prior to their certification. Then there would be a follow-up one-day clinic one month prior to the certification.

Nobody wanted to do it that way, and they wouldn't schedule them. It was asking them to give up three days of work, to have three days worth of travel and expenses, or whatever, and they wouldn't do it. So we went to a one clinic two-day format and recommended that it be scheduled six to eight weeks prior to the test. Even so, most groups still request their pre-cert for less than four weeks prior to the test :(
~~Danvers

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 17:41 #33

Rick Burten wrote:
And this is something that we really need to clean up if we are going to claim we provide a level playing field for all candidates. Either powere tools should be allowed or not. And it should not be a decision for the Examiner to make.

I find it ironic that this subject ends up being such a point of contention. The old rule was that no power tools were allowed. So many people complained about it that the committee tried to address a common concern and allow power tools. But, since testing sites are out of the committee's control, it had to get modified: some testing sites don't have sufficient power, some sites are configured such that there's no way to avoid spooking somebody's horse, or whatever. So it was modified so that the examiner makes the call depending upon the site conditions.

It does create some potential for disturbing the standardization, but it is a major point of the "norming" process that gets covered at Examiner and Tester Update clinics, and--in my experience--it gets covered thoroughly in the Examiner/Tester pre-test discussions.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that--good or bad--this rule change was enacted in an attempt to address a common complaint, but it's been one that came back to bite the test in the butt.
~~Danvers

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 18:19 #34

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
I'll keep this in mind in the future.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for helping me understand what he was trying to explain to me. I bow to your superior understanding and knowledge. I hope one day to have your in depth understanding of the topic and your skill in applying it to real world solutions.

Hey Ron, I am not trying to be sarcastic. For someone to say all that is needed is a flat foot and flat shoe that is pretty simplistic and can be taken as condensending. The questions I have is how and why. If your attempting to gain a flat foot and issues like conformation, lameness, poor hoof qaulity then how do you go about it? If the method used is to inspect and trim a few times before applying the shoe then great. But how far do you go? Do you invade the live sole plane? Is it neccassary for the horse to be standing on a flat hard surface? Maybe Natural Balance principles are a good tool? Is a hard flat surface needed when trimming to the live sole plane? In my mind a lot of this is trimming to the horses conformation, developeing an eye for conformation, the way the foot lands, haveing a flat surface and well lit area to work. In addition to obtaining a flat foot and flat shoe Jaye also stressed the importance of medial lateral balance. I have heard Dr. Ogrady say medial lateral balance is not that important. Gene Ovyneck stresses importance of medial lateral balance and uses the live sole plane as a tool to obtain it. So who is right, how do they do it and why do the so called experts believe what they believe? As far as me applying things in the real world I do it everyday, shoes stay on, horses are sound and people are happy. I am here to learn as much as I can and keep an open mind. Every horse is different and present unique challenges for all of us. To say all you need is a flat foot and flat shoe is over simplefying things. We also need to learn what is safe to remove and what to leave. Not always an easy thing to figure out.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 20:01 #35

  • Gary Hill
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Phil, I have found that one of the hardest things for new farriers to master is the ability to level the foot and shoe? To get a horse to land flat does take care of alot of problems. Simple is ,as simple does. Basic's are basics and don't ever need to be neglected or overlooked. Best, Gary
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 22:28 #36

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Phil for the test it pretty simple. Flat foot flat shoe

I refere you to the study guide Pafe 36

Item 1

10 points - The entire hoof is on and even plane and is in contact with the flat shoe.

8,6,4, points - There are varying degrees of unevenness which couls be corrected without harming the horse.


Item 2

10 - The horse stands in the middle of the hoof, and th eground surface of the hool wall is trimmed perpendicular to the center line.

8,6,4 - There are varying degrees of error in balance which could be corrected with out harming the horse.

A little settleing should not be a show stopper if it was level and balanced before it was set down.

OTOH, my mentor tell me a story where he was in a compition. Trimed the horse up flat and level. When he picked up the foot the next time it looked like a roller coaster. Made the foot flat a level agian, set the foot down. when he picked it up it was again looking like a roller coaster. The next time he called for the judge, picked up the foot leveled it again the kept the foot up for the judge. By this time the foot was to short to safetly hot shoe so he was stopped.

So I guess the best thing is to level the foot up just before the examiner comes over to the horse. And don't put the foot down.


What really get me on the guide line is the use of the word "appropriate" in several places. what appropriate for one person may not be for another.

Heres and example;

Length

10 - The hoof is cut to an appropriate, sound length and matches its mate.

What is and appropriate, sound length?

At the cert I attended I saw some exminers using a tape to measure the length. However, I have found no guide lines on what a proper lenght is. Though I have heard some measurements.

I see this trough out the test. Whats appropriate to one may not be appropriate to another.

Gary
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 31 Oct 2006 00:03 #37

Gary_Miller]So I guess the best thing is to level the foot up just before the examiner comes over to the horse. And don't put the foot down.[/quote]
Yes. If you've got a foot that's wet or distorted and likely to shift/settle on you, this is the safest approach. And, even if you're not doing a "hand off," your Tester/Examiner won't mind at all if you say something to the effect of "Wait just a minute before you score that wrote:
What really get me on the guide line is the use of the word "appropriate" in several places. what appropriate for one person may not be for another.

Heres and example;

Length

10 - The hoof is cut to an appropriate, sound length and matches its mate.

What is and appropriate, sound length?

Yeah, it sounds like a hedge, but everyone's not shoeing the same horse here. If I draw a 1200# horse that wears a size two and you draw a 900# horse that wears a size 00, the hoof length is not going to be the same. Even if we draw horses that are the same size and type, the appropriate length of foot is going to be a mix of a lot of variables.

At the cert I attended I saw some exminers using a tape to measure the length. However, I have found no guide lines on what a proper lenght is. Though I have heard some measurements.

Using the tape (or calipers or whatever) is for comparing the pair, not for seeing if they're cut to a pre-specified length.
~~Danvers

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 31 Oct 2006 00:31 #38

In my inexpert opinion, the CF test is synopsised thusly: two flat feet, with the flares removed (straight from top to bottom) with two shoes nailed on that fit the foot. All the argueing in the world is not going to change this fact. If you trim two feet clean, trim to a normal, reaonable lenght, remove the flares as dictated by the proximal third of the foot and nail on two shoes that FIT, you WILL pass the test. Without attempting to be offensive, this is a simple test of fundamental skills ( which I failed the first time I took the practical... something about my shoe looking NOTHING like the foot! :o ) I was a year out of school and had been working on my own. This made me seek out a teacher and learn to trim and shape/forge shoes. Its tough when a basic objective standard hands you your @ss on a platter. All the different theories about breakover, balance, etc are useless if you can't get a foot flat enough or shape a shoe that reasonabley resembles the foot.
JMO,
Jason
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 31 Oct 2006 07:25 #39

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Danvers, thanks for your insite. I understand that its all diffrent for every horse. However, what I consider appropriate to me may not be appropriate to you. This type of subjectivity is the only real flaw I see in the test and the most difficult/if not impossable to remove due to the human factor.

Jason, this is sound advice and is along the same line of what Criag Trinka talked about when he came and gave us a clinic last year. In fact he said to resist the temptation to use you nippers and only use your rasp to get the feet flat and leve and remove all the distortion on the outside of the hoof.

Gary
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 31 Oct 2006 11:59 #40

Jason Maki wrote:
In my inexpert opinion, the CF test is synopsised thusly: two flat feet, with the flares removed (straight from top to bottom) with two shoes nailed on that fit the foot. All the argueing in the world is not going to change this fact. If you trim two feet clean, trim to a normal, reaonable lenght, remove the flares as dictated by the proximal third of the foot and nail on two shoes that FIT, you WILL pass the test. Without attempting to be offensive, this is a simple test of fundamental skills ( which I failed the first time I took the practical... something about my shoe looking NOTHING like the foot! :o ) I was a year out of school and had been working on my own. This made me seek out a teacher and learn to trim and shape/forge shoes. Its tough when a basic objective standard hands you your @ss on a platter. All the different theories about breakover, balance, etc are useless if you can't get a foot flat enough or shape a shoe that reasonabley resembles the foot.
JMO,
Jason

I agree Jason you do all that and you should pass the test. Nobody is argueing to change things, at least I didnt take it that way. I took it as a discussion on tricks to make sure the feet will pass with high marks when your examiner scores your work.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 03 Nov 2006 17:01 #41

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Mr. Fanguy and Mr. Elsbree have been closely aligned with Mr. Ferguson for a very long time. Given their prior open support for Mr. Ferguson and his policies in Mr. Ferguson’s campaign for the presidency I for one any looking forward to seeing how their candidacies play with the membership given the ongoing failure of Mr. Ferguson’s administration to actually accomplish anything on his agenda, much less anything at all. At this point they are both going to have to repudiate their relationships with Mr. Ferguson in a meaningful way to avoid being tarred with the brush that Mr. Ferguson is tarring himself.

Interesting that you end this with a metaphor about tarring. It would appear that’s in fact what you’re attempting, a tar and feather campaign, where you would extend your implication of Ferguson as Hitler and include Dick and Andrew as Goering and Hess.

Many people openly supported Dave’s campaign and platform. That’s how he got elected. That doesn’t make them responsible for what you refer to as an “ongoing failure… to accomplish anything” from that platform.

Suggesting that any candidate should refuse to accept Ferguson doesn’t seem to be a productive way of moving forward. I would hope that none of the candidates would refuse to acknowledge “Mr. Ferguson” since their candidacy implies that they’re making a conscious and willful choice to work with him.
~~Danvers

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 04 Nov 2006 01:17 #42

danverschild wrote:
Interesting that you end this with a metaphor about tarring. It would appear that’s in fact what you’re attempting, a tar and feather campaign, where you would extend your implication of Ferguson as Hitler and include Dick and Andrew as Goering and Hess.
Considering I wrote what you quoted some time ago it is a very astute political move to attempt to impute prior intent where none existed. If you see Dick and Andrew as Goering and Hess I would have to say that it is an issue you need to have a conversation with yourself about. However, your trying to construct something that doesn't exist because it serves your candidates campaign needs is worse by far than what you accuse me of.

Mr. Ferguson constantly and consistently tars himself as an ineffectual, inconsistent, inconsiderate leader that believes has no need for the rules that govern his office or the people around him that also hold elected office. He has repeatedly placed them in a position that compromises their ethics and reputations because someone sold them the line that it was somehow in their job description to cover Mr. Ferguson’s rear end whenever he screws up because that is what is best for the AFA.
danverschild wrote:
I would hope that none of the candidates would refuse to acknowledge “Mr. Ferguson” since their candidacy implies that they’re making a conscious and willful choice to work with him.
I'm sorry, this is a bit to much. A candidate should make the choice to run for an elected office because they believe that they are able to bring something to the office that will benefit the association. A candidate’s choice to run is a conscious and willful choice to work for the membership of the association, not Mr. Ferguson and you are very wrong to suggest that it should be otherwise.

Mr. Ferguson is currently president of the AFA. If I am elected I will do my best to work with him for the good of the membership. If he is trying to do something that I simply believe is not going to be good for the membership I will advocate for my point of view and if the majority decides to move in that direction anyway I will suck it up and make it happen because that is the job. If he chooses to take a course of action that I believe is illegal or unethical I will oppose him on behalf of the membership and there is no majority that can override my legal and ethical obligations to the membership.
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