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TOPIC: T.N. Vs. Gary

RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 29 Oct 2006 13:18 #16

  • Rick Burten
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Maybe, as others have suggested, it should be mandatory for every candidate to attend and participate in at least one pre-certification clinic. Perhaps, each time a candidate wishes to stand for a certification, s/he should have to first attend a pre-certification clinic. I honestly don't know.

One thing that I do know is that we should re-open the program to members and non-members. Since there is this apparent bugaboo about joining the AFa in the first place, lets just give non-members the option of joining the AFA and then having to only pay AFA member rates for the exams, or remain a non-member but have to pay the non-member exams fee of , for instance$400.00, and a yearly fee of $155.00 thereafter in order to keep their appellation current and registered with the AFA. Or, just charge non-members a fee of $1500.00 to take the exam or any part there of(and the fee is charged each time a non-member candidate stands for any part of any of the exams, regardless).

Hell, maybe we should charge members more to take the exams. Maybe if they had more at risk, they'd be better prepared in the first place. Quien sabe?

And while we're at it, lets stop the foolish nonsense of not giving the correct answers to missed questions to candidates who did not pass the written.

That policy, as much as any other, and maybe more than any other involving certification, really chaps my butt. It sure is counter to one element of our stated mission.

And lets do get a computer program in place that can track each and every question and each and every answer to those questions. Then we can readily find the good questions and the bad questions and eliminate those bad ones.

And lets get the tests vetted by true educators, trained in writing test questions and answers.

Long as I'm on a roll here, lets get a 'certification committee' made up of someone other than CJF Examiners. Lets get some committee members who are non-examiners,some Testers, some CF's, and some who are not certified

Better yet, maybe those folks should be formed as an Advisory Council/committee. And mayber the members of the Certification Committee should listen to what their advisors tell them.
Rick Burten PF

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 29 Oct 2006 13:52 #17

  • jvzieger
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I have to agree with Gary on most of what he said.

The certification test may have had politics involved in the past, but I've been to many certifications in the past three years, and I see testers being very fair in holding people to the predefined standards.

I do not think the test should be ******ed down to the lowest common denominator. When I eventually pass my practical and shoe board (I've already gotten through the written), I will be proud.

When I left a high spot in the foot that got me stopped on my recent attempt, the examiner called over several other examiners to discuss and see if they agreed with his judgement.

The test is a fair and good standard and is administered fairly.

If you can't pass it, then you're not good enough to be certified. That's how we're going to be able to sell the benefits of a certified farrier to the horse owning public. JMHO :)
Jim Zieger Farrier
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 29 Oct 2006 13:59 #18

  • George Geist
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All good ideas Rick,

Hope you get the chance to bring some of them to the table.

George
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 29 Oct 2006 18:09 #19

  • T.N. Trosin
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See Gary we agree on way more than we thought we did.

As far as the certification goes, it still needs to be wrenched a little. Here is the problems as I see it.

1. Lack of parody. Thats to say everbody intreprets the standard differntly. I have seen the shoe boards that past from other parts of the country that wouldn't pass here. If there is a bugaboo it's the stinking shoe board. Right or wrong they want these cracker jack shoes that don't fit a lot of feet. Further the pattern that the AFA provides is pretty unrealistic here in California. The only breed I have seen here that is remotly close to this pattern is Hackney Ponies. Further the AFA doesn't require that the candidates to make their shoes to the patterns. The Certification committee needs to come correct on this. While I agree that they are making an excelent effort at updating examiners, there are sitll holes in the parody issue. If the certification committee has done further work on this since the Mid-year they have failed to notify the board.

2. The Pre-Certs are above where they need to be. Whoever has been in charge of these things need to realize that they need to be A. Free and B. a place to get people on track especially if the expect the level of workmanship on the shoe boards that they do. I know a lot of good farriers who I would have shoe my horses who wouldn't pass the test becuse of they way they fit a shoe to a foot. I think and the WSFA is currently implemnting a serries of Pre-Pre Certification clinics to address this problem. If you reach out to the community and say "o.k. where are you at?" and they tell you then you can help them make the adjustments to where they can prepare for the test.

My last word on this. The technology. Should there be a requirement for board members to have an email account. Yes there should in my opinion, however, as long as the AFA has little to no control of who is appointed to it's board of directors it is impliment this policy. The chapters need to be more responsiable in who and how they place a board rep.
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 29 Oct 2006 21:52 #20

T.N. Trosin wrote:
My last word on this. The technology. Should there be a requirement for board members to have an email account.
Tom,

This is likely the easiest of all of the issues you mention to correct/find resolution to. It would be fairly easy to set up an email account for every member of the AFA using the AMERICANFARRIERS.ORG domain. The cost of doing this would be negligible. Then all the members would have to accomplish is setting up their email program to access their AFA email account. Doing this would insure that every email is actually issued to every member and transfer responsibility for reading what is sent to the member themselves. This would also reduce the effort involved in tracking and updating the never ending and ever changing inventory of email addresses that is out there. My belief is that using "MEMB" plus the id number, in my case 8231, would yield a viable email address of This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..

Now for those of us that are technology savvy the member information management software could allow members to set up their own auto forwarder. Then email sent to their AFA email address would be automatically forwarded to the email account of their choosing. Mine for instance would be addressed to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. then the system would automatically forward it to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. I would know that it came via the AFA mail server because the “to address” would be the AFA email address.

The email account would be a member benefit and always available as long as the member is in good standing. Those without computers could use a friend’s computer or a public library computer to access the AFA website and its “New” web mail page to read their email. For those that do not have a lot of tech savvy, they can get a fried to help them. Password management would be completely automated and follow the lines that are used for hotmail, MSN, etc….

I know it sounds like a complex solution, but it really is easy to set up. The real issue is establish policies governing how long messages can stay on the server and how big attachments can be that are being sent to or from AFA email addresses. This all governs how much disk storage is required and thus governs the cost.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 29 Oct 2006 23:03 #21

jvzieger wrote:
I have to agree with Gary on most of what he said.

The certification test may have had politics involved in the past, but I've been to many certifications in the past three years, and I see testers being very fair in holding people to the predefined standards.

I do not think the test should be ******ed down to the lowest common denominator. When I eventually pass my practical and shoe board (I've already gotten through the written), I will be proud.

When I left a high spot in the foot that got me stopped on my recent attempt, the examiner called over several other examiners to discuss and see if they agreed with his judgement.

The test is a fair and good standard and is administered fairly.

If you can't pass it, then you're not good enough to be certified. That's how we're going to be able to sell the benefits of a certified farrier to the horse owning public. JMHO :)

How do you know the foot was not flat when you dropped it then settled and was unlevel by the time the examiner looked at it? I know my foot was flat when it was done, however was not flat when the examiner looked at it and he pointed it out to me and I could see it. This is one of the things we talked about this weekend with Jaye. He suggested checking and rechecking the feet to make sure they are flat before you nail the shoe on. The horse we did Friday needed to be leveled a few times before we nailed the shoe on. The only other clinician I have heard mention this was Dave Farley over 4 years ago at a farrier clinic. I asked a lot of trimming questions at the AFA Pre Cert clinic two years ago and this was never brought up.
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 29 Oct 2006 23:41 #22

Phil Armitage wrote:
How do you know the foot was not flat when you dropped it then settled and was unlevel by the time the examiner looked at it? I know my foot was flat when it was done, however was not flat when the examiner looked at it and he pointed it out to me and I could see it. This is one of the things we talked about this weekend with Jaye. He suggested checking and rechecking the feet to make sure they are flat before you nail the shoe on. The horse we did Friday needed to be leveled a few times before we nailed the shoe on.
Phil,

Hmmmm. Seems to me I said something about a flat shoe on a flat foot when I came back from riding with Jaye. :eek: And isn't that is what lead to his coming up to your neck of the woods. Well I'm glad you got the same education. :D
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 01:31 #23

Phil Armitage wrote:
snip ...this weekend with Jaye. He suggested checking and rechecking the feet to make sure they are flat before you nail the shoe on. The horse we did Friday needed to be leveled a few times before we nailed the shoe on. The only other clinician I have heard mention this was Dave Farley over 4 years ago at a farrier clinic. I asked a lot of trimming questions at the AFA Pre Cert clinic two years ago and this was never brought up.

Strange that it wasn't covered... Mitch and I have stressed this point at every pre-cert clinic that we've done, and we worked it into the workshops we did for new clinicians.

I usually tell people to call the examiner/tester and then to make him/her wait just a moment while you recheck the foot before handing it off. It's more important in places like the great midwet than it is in Utah, but...

BTW, I've also heard several examiners incorporate this advice into their pre-flight talk when they're starting a practical exam.
~~Danvers

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 04:40 #24

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Phil,

Hmmmm. Seems to me I said something about a flat shoe on a flat foot when I came back from riding with Jaye. :eek: And isn't that is what lead to his coming up to your neck of the woods. Well I'm glad you got the same education. :D

Ron it is BS comments like this that yank my chain. Seems to me your head was spinning after spending time with Uncle Jaye and really could not elaborate too much on what you learned. Hope this explains a little more for you.

Flat shoe on a flat foot is pretty common sense. An unbalanced foot with horn settleing down because it is jammed up and giveing it time to settle is another subject. NB teaches flat foot flat shoe, AFA teaches flat foot flat shoe. Redden on the other hand well I don't know what he teaches. Seems to me you got the flat foot and flat shoe, but did you get the part about jamming, shearing and out of balance.

I will add more of my thoughts on the Jaye Perry Clinic thread.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 04:43 #25

danverschild wrote:
Strange that it wasn't covered... Mitch and I have stressed this point at every pre-cert clinic that we've done, and we worked it into the workshops we did for new clinicians.

I usually tell people to call the examiner/tester and then to make him/her wait just a moment while you recheck the foot before handing it off. It's more important in places like the great midwet than it is in Utah, but...

BTW, I've also heard several examiners incorporate this advice into their pre-flight talk when they're starting a practical exam.

Hi, Danvers glad to hear this. Mitch was present at the pre cert I attended and he was great. I do not recall him talkeing about rechecking the feet for level. What pre-flight talk, never saw that. Sounds like a logical thing to do.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 05:30 #26

Phil Armitage wrote:
What pre-flight talk, never saw that. Sounds like a logical thing to do.

There's no scripted introduction, but each of the Examiners that I've worked with has given a brief talk to the candidates before the actual exam commences.

Some of them try to keep their topics limited to the specifics of the day--whether or not power tools will be allowed, the starting sequences, etc.

Others, and the majority--at least among those I've worked with, will try to remind candidates of certain things (i.e., the prescribed fit, the concerns that will get scored on more than one section of the exam) and will often comment on issues that apply to the horses that will be done that particular day.
~~Danvers

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 12:18 #27

Phil Armitage wrote:
Ron it is BS comments like this that yank my chain.
I'll keep this in mind in the future.
Phil Armitage wrote:
Hope this explains a little more for you.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for helping me understand what he was trying to explain to me. I bow to your superior understanding and knowledge. I hope one day to have your in depth understanding of the topic and your skill in applying it to real world solutions.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 12:40 #28

  • Rick Burten
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danverschild wrote:
Some of them try to keep their topics limited to the specifics of the day--whether or not power tools will be allowed,
And this is something that we really need to clean up if we are going to claim we provide a level playing field for all candidates. Either powere tools should be allowed or not. And it should not be a decision for the Examiner to make.

I've heard all the discussion/arguments, pro and con and blah, blah, blah, but the fact remains that the parity TomT spoke of with regard to another phase of the exams, doesn't exist in this phase if the examiner gets to make the decision arbitrairly.

As for the shoe display, like I've said before, every examiner should have an identical set of shoes, each of which have one of the modifications required. That way, candidates would be able to see exactly what is being called for, and would be able to compare their work against the 'standard'.

I've seen and attended free pre-certification clinics, and the one's by the AFA that the candidate has to pay for. Neither one was very well attended and I don't know that the success rates for those who attended was significantly higher. So, I again offer for discussion, the concept that attendence at a pre-certification clinic be made mandatory for anyone who wishes to stand for the exams. I think the cost should be either nominal or no cost, and that the fees for the actual certification should be raised sufficiently to cover costs incurred for pre-certification clinics.
Rick Burten PF

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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 14:09 #29

Rick Burten wrote:
Either powere tools should be allowed or not. And it should not be a decision for the Examiner to make.

Rick, I could'nt agree with you more.
Rick Burten wrote:
That way, candidates would be able to see exactly what is being called for, and would be able to compare their work against the 'standard'.

The issue I see here is a lack of "minimum completion standard". There has to be a range of acceptable instead of "the standard". However no "******ing down the level of acceptable work.

The written test has improved and the pass rate with it. Hope you will re-consider being a tester.

John
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RE:T.N. Vs. Gary 30 Oct 2006 14:17 #30

  • Gary_Miller
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I guess I really don't know what is to be taught at a pre-cert clinic. I attended my first pre-cert and cert last year Feb 05 abouts, as an observer, and was only able to attend one day. At the pre-cert they went over what was required. talked allot about time management. Worked on fixing your tools. There was some shoe making, and everyone shod a horse. I think the next day they went over the test and may of even done a pratice test I'm not sure.

The point I hope to make is that the pre-cert was one month before the certification. One month is not enough time to fix those habits one may have in order to pass the test. Time management seemed to be the biggest problems I say at the Cert.

The pre-certs is a good thing however I think one needs to attend them more than once before he attempts the test and far enough out before the test that he can work on all the weak points and thier time management.

From what I understand there is also a pamplet that is handed out at the pre-cert and you can only get it if you attend a pre-cert. This is diffrent than the study guide. Why should you have to attend a pre-cert to get the pamplet?


Gary
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