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TOPIC: Does it help?

RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 10:48 #76

  • vthorseshoe
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Phil: I disagree with your statement

Tom, in most cases the basics are taught before one joins the AFA. There is nothing wrong with promoteing education. I would like to see the trade promote experience. The best teacher in this trade is experience.
__________________
Phil Armitage


You gain experience from the teachers. In many cases it can be someone you watch or someone who takes you by the hand and instructs you. It can even be a book or a video/cd you watch, but even those can be classified as a teacher.
Experience on its own has no way to teach without a person behind it showing the way.

Improvement comes from practice and practice will make you a teacher of someone else after a while.
.
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 10:57 #77

I agree Tom, I am talking about the AFA and what should be there role. Before one becomes certified I think it would be better to gain more experience. Any farrier can become a CF in a relatively short period and have no experience. Maybe this is a problem and why CF does not have the recognition it deserves.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 11:39 #78

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Phil Armitage in gray

Tom, in most cases the basics are taught before one joins the AFA. There is nothing wrong with promoteing education. I would like to see the trade promote experience. The best teacher in this trade is experience.

Humans learn to do things on the basis of instinct, personal experience, and the experience of others.

Nobody is born knowing which way to turn a nail and one has only a 50-50 chance of getting it right if one relies solely on one's own experience; furthermore, until one figures out that the orientation of the bevel guides the nail and the relationship of the bevel to the treademark, one's odds of stabbing Dobbin are about the same every time one drives a nail. On the other hand, if one is taught to turn the trademark to the frog and relationship of the trademark to the bevel before driving the first nail, one has a chance of getting it right the first time, and each time thereafter. Learning how and why on the basis of another's experience is called "education" - and in this case, it's a bit easier on the horse.

Because farriery involves motor skills, learning how and why one does a particular thing does not imply expertise; expertise in motor skills is a function of talent and practice. Lots of folks learn how to play a guitar, but few ever learn to play like Chet Atkins or Buddy Guy. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 12:31 #79

  • tbloomer
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Phil Armitage wrote:
I agree Tom, I am talking about the AFA and what should be there role. Before one becomes certified I think it would be better to gain more experience. Any farrier can become a CF in a relatively short period and have no experience. Maybe this is a problem and why CF does not have the recognition it deserves.
The AFA requires one year of experience prior to taking the CF exam. The test does not measure experience. It only measures basic motor skills and knowledge. There are a lot of people who fail this very basic test who have 10 years or more experience. The test is not ABOUT experience. IMHO the basic knowledge and skills required to pass the CF should be obtained BEFORE one enters the trade to work without guidance or supervision.

The AFA's Certified Farrier exam is very simple. The study guide provides every subject and definition that is covered on the written exam. The shoe display has some very basic shoe modifications which ANYONE calling themself a farrier ought to be able to do BEFORE they go get the experience actually using those modifications without guidance from someone with experience. AND frankly, if you can't level two feet and safely perimiter fit two keg shoes in less than an hour, who would want you getting your basic shoeing experience under their horses?

IMHO, anybody with real experience and real skill would be insulted by simplicity of the CF test. Therefore the lack of regognition of the CF (as a credential) from the tenured professionals is well deserved. All the CF credential proves is that you have the bare minimum knowledge and motor skills required to safely put shoes on a horse. It does not prove that you have what it takes to make it in the big leagues. The only proof of big league shoeing is the fact that you are ALREADY THERE. AND if you think you need to announce your arrival, then you have not yet truly arrived.

If you want a credential with a minimum experience requirement, then go take The Guild exam. That organization has a bare minimum requirement of 4-years full time experience BEFORE you pass their bare minimum test of skill and knowledge.

Again I am trying to emphasize the idea that these tests are about MINIMUM requirements and not maximum capability. As such, they should not present much of a challenge to a tenured professional. In addition, horse owners with needs above and beyond basic minimum hoof-care should be more concerned about the established reputation, track record, and tenure that an individual farrier has within a particular shoeing specialty. 'nuther words the cream rises to the top. Certification is about comming in at the bottom. As such, it should deserve only minimum recognition - like a high school diploma might indicate that somebody can handle basic reading writing and rithmatic. A college degree might indicate somebody is "trainable" in whatever profession their degree prepares them to enter. However, it does not indicate that you have achieved anything within that profession.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 13:17 #80

  • tbloomer
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Because farriery involves motor skills, learning how and why one does a particular thing does not imply expertise; expertise in motor skills is a function of talent and practice. Lots of folks learn how to play a guitar, but few ever learn to play like Chet Atkins or Buddy Guy. :)
I'm sure that there a lot of people who think Elvis was a "good guitar player." :)
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 13:25 #81

  • Rick Burten
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ray steele wrote:
Alot runs rampart in our profession,bull and all,still a person who can shoe a horse,for its needs at the time, certified or "ignorant" is a farrier in my eyes,formal educated or not
Maybe what we need is a RSAF(Ray Steele Approved Farrier)appellation after our names. :) After all, Ray has now laid out the parameters necessary to be considered a "Ray Steele Approved Farrier".

Knowing Ray's abhorance of joining organizations, perhaps he will now charter a non-organization "The Ray Steele non-organization of RSAF's"(TRSNORSAF phonetically pronounced: ter- snore-saf(soft 'a') ). Will one need to be an RSAF to purchase suppplies/inventory from Ray's supply house? What will become of those who are not RSAF's?

Will Ray set up a program to help non-RSAF's become RSAF's? How much will it cost?

For current updates, tune in again, Same bat time, same bat channel :D
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 17:23 #82

  • smitty88
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ray steele wrote:
Hi Smitty,

Can you relate why you feel that forging shoes such as the roadster hind is more beneficial than forging a useful everyday shoe?

I agree with Tom Stovall ,on the forging of products that are not in use but probably disagree with him on certification, and strongly disagree with Tom Bloomer on the entire marketing of certifications as a means to the end of promoting an organizatios arbitrary credentials but would be very interested in your reasoning for the support of forging contests as they stand today.

While I appreciate your comment concerning "having a team represent your country" I don't buy it, to many in my opinion try to relate the standings of a contest to quality of farriery in a given country,based upon team standings, when in fact farriers are competing to a subjective quality/standard which varies from country to country, and region to region. It's kinda like nails,in the USA , rolled nails like Capewell/Vector/Cooper seem to be superior, in Europe Mustad/Mondial work best,partly because of history and partly because of enviromental conditions. Yet they are all pieces of wire attaching horseshoes to the hoof. this said I welcome and encourage you comments.

Regards

Ray Steele

Hi Ray
i dont know anybody that makes Roadsters every day
except the British Army Apprentices

they all make one before 10am
its just somthing they do

i know you dont put these type of shoes on in your
every day work

but its a shoe that makes you think and helps your
forgeing

we dont have many Roadster classes over here
i like to see forgeing shoes that relate to your

every day needs
i think every farrier should be able to forge well

it is important to me

i respect Toms view point
but i would hate to see forgeing dwindle away

sorry i cant put words together like Tom


i dont feel to bad doe i new what puissance was
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 20:14 #83

  • tbloomer
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smitty88 wrote:
. . . sorry i cant put words together like Tom
Smitty,

Although I am not the Tom to whom you are referring, I always thought you wrote in the style of "ee commings." Many consider him a literary genius. Therefore I have always assumed that your style of writing was born of similar talent. Like ee comings, you are able to communicate very well without the arbitrary trappings of capitalization and punctuation. Though I appreciate Mr. Stovall’s way with words, I envy the flavour and colour of your style and wish I had your talent for writing “outside the box.”
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 20:14 #84

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Rick Burten wrote:
Maybe what we need is a RSAF(Ray Steele Approved Farrier)appellation after our names. :) After all, Ray has now laid out the parameters necessary to be considered a "Ray Steele Approved Farrier".

Knowing Ray's abhorance of joining organizations, perhaps he will now charter a non-organization "The Ray Steele non-organization of RSAF's"(TRSNORSAF phonetically pronounced: ter- snore-saf(soft 'a') ). Will one need to be an RSAF to purchase suppplies/inventory from Ray's supply house? What will become of those who are not RSAF's?

Will Ray set up a program to help non-RSAF's become RSAF's? How much will it cost?

For current updates, tune in again, Same bat time, same bat channel :D

Rick,

will they buy it? I did think of selling certifications, figured if I printed them on a brown paper bag they would be instantly useful, could customize each with a different color crayon, you know make them personal, think of the initials after your name, if it is lunch size,R.Burten, b.a.g if you prefer more embellishment, R.Burten,s.a.c.k.. Rick this is your lucky day, I was going to ask $50.00 for the b.a.g. to you $35.00 but you will have to get one for Jaye Perry ,since he is taking Tom Bloomers' test,it will be the perfect gift, if he passes he can put his "paper" in the bag, if he fails I'm sure he can put something else in it, either way he has a useful certification.Give me your credit card # now, and we can keep it a secret between us. I owe ya man.

Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 22:56 #85

  • Cyber Farrier
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As this idea was confabulated here, I insist the RC get a 10% cut.

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Does it help? 11 Oct 2006 23:43 #86

  • Rick Burten
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ray steele wrote:
Rick,
if it is lunch size,R.Burten, b.a.g
b.a.g.?? basic associate guru???
if you prefer more embellishment, R.Burten,s.a.c.k.

s.a.c.k.? Steele approved certified knave????
I owe ya man.
That being the case, I'll expect my certifications to be confired, gratis.

As I'm eco-conscious, plain brown paper and biodegradible crayons are preferred.

And, by providing this gratis, you rob Baron(does this make you a robber Baron??) of any filthy lucre he might enjoy as the result of your calligraphic and entrepunerial efforts. Something that should well appeal to your Yankee parsimony and niggardly ways. :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Does it help? 12 Oct 2006 00:26 #87

  • ray steele
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
As this idea was confabulated here, I insist the RC get a 10% cut.

Baron

Baron,

you well know all is negotiable, for the 10% can I expect free web site and set up, a non compete with any other governing body,including but not exclusive of yourself and liberal access to randomly interject into any conversation or thread. This may be a small,teeny bit more than you had considered, but be assured ,if you can keep this conversation between the two of us, I'll cut Burten out and give you his share.


Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:Does it help? 12 Oct 2006 00:33 #88

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Rick Burten wrote:
b.a.g.?? basic associate guru???

if you prefer more embellishment, R.Burten,s.a.c.k.[/quote

s.a.c.k.? Steele approved certified knave????

That being the case, I'll expect my certifications to be confired, gratis.

As I'm eco-conscious, plain brown paper and biodegradible crayons are preferred.

And, by providing this gratis, you rob Baron(does this make you a robber Baron??) of any filthy lucre he might enjoy as the result of your calligraphic and entrepunerial efforts. Something that should well appeal to your Yankee parsimony and niggardly ways. :)


Rick,

B.A.G. as in lunch bag size, S.A.C.K. as in grocery sack size. remember the key phrase,"usefull from the git go". I was thinking of the lifetime achievement bag, PLASTIC, $100.00 per yr sustainable. oh yeah ,enough small talk ,what is your credit card #. I want to get one to Jaye right away. With the latest posts about the magazine these suckers might sell , best deal in town, and" useful from the git go"

Regards

Ray Steele

P.S.

gratis? never heard of such a word,anyone speak that language is foriegn to me
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RE:Does it help? 12 Oct 2006 02:41 #89

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tbloomer wrote:
Thus in your eyes anyone who can demonstrate the ability to shoe a horse according to it's needs is a farrier. Where does that leave those who cannot demonstrate this ability, in your eyes? Is it safe to assume that they are not farriers, certified or "ignorant?"


Tom Bloomer,

the answer to your question ,I believe can be found in your nifty little saying,

"Some people have excuses, etc.

What do you have?"

Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:Does it help? 12 Oct 2006 13:23 #90

  • tbloomer
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ray steele wrote:
Tom Bloomer,

the answer to your question ,I believe can be found in your nifty little saying,

"Some people have excuses, etc.

What do you have?"

Regards

Ray Steele
I have a written endorsement of my work from This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. dated Wednesday, September 14, 2005:

Tom,

Nice seviceable work! i usually judge a shoeing job by how the horse handled it, ie how did he perform after, compared to before, my entire objective is results.

Jaye's appraisal of the photos ("Moose" which I posted on this board a year later) was more critical and informative. Therefore either he has a higher standard of certification or you are just being a nice guy . . . not wanting to hurt my feelings. :) Either way, I am honored to be in your company and share your passion for this profession.

I believe that encouraging green farriers to seek certification is good for the profession. Not because certification itself designates that the bearer is more qualified than one who has no certification, but because the certification process is educational. In order to achieve one must set goals. Certifications are MINIMUM goals defined by a group of peers.

I do not believe that certification represents maximum achievement. I do not believe that certification should be marketed as a maximum achievement. It should be something sought by a beginner as a means of evaluating ones progress. I also believe that any certification organization should be honored when a tenured professional stands for a certification test.

I have watched several tenured professionals stand for AFA certification. The results they produced were a tremendous inspiration. For me to have the priviledge of watching someone do the AFA practical without breaking a sweat and then sit down and drink a cup of coffee while the clock ran another 20 minutes . . . then to see that person get the highest score for the year on the CF practical . . . from my perspective as a rookie, it showed me how much more I had to learn and how much harder I had to work - and still have much further to go.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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