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TOPIC: Does it help?

Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 09:00 #1

  • T.N. Trosin
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The question has come to me after reading the boards Does discussing AFA stuff here really help?

It came to me as I read the candidate questions thread and noticed that questions were being asked by non-members, Derin Floor's question about member retention and the post from the "Shoes enough guy". What bugs me about all of this is that the world is seeing the good, bad, ugly, true, and untrue about an orginization that I have come to hold pretty dear. Further a lot of the stuff that is posted on this site about the AFA is strictly the opinion of people who have an ax to grind or who wouldn't belong to any club that would have someone like them as a member.
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 10:37 #2

  • Jaye Perry
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T.N. Trosin-The question has come to me after reading the boards Does discussing AFA stuff here really help?
Yes, it gives the "unwashed" farrier and horse owning populous a genre to make some type of conclusion(s) whether they would , will or can decide to be a member or be associated with the AFA.

It came to me as I read the candidate questions thread and noticed that questions were being asked by non-members, Derin Floor's question about member retention and the post from the "Shoes enough guy".
Member or "non-member", does it matter? Again a mentality of the great "unwashed" that has no privilege to discuss an identity they may or may not want to be a member of. Seems to be an "elitess" mentality coming from the hard line or "goose stepping" mob.
What bugs me about all of this is that the world is seeing the good, bad, ugly, true, and untrue about an orginization that I have come to hold pretty dear.
Discussion, debate and parlay about things is healthy. Change is created by those who question, diverge in thought and bring inadequcies to the front for exposure.



Further a lot of the stuff that is posted on this site about the AFA is strictly the opinion of people who have an ax to grind or who wouldn't belong to any club that would have someone like them as a member.
To follow without question is robotic.

Membership on this forum equals or exceeds the AFA roll call, farrier or not. That is what the AFA or it's hard line membership doesn't understand; perception and publicity.
42,000 + responses on this forum(doesn't include the archives); AFA and other farrier forums, maybe 2% of the FHC total(s). Whining about discussions that may or may not effect the AFA shows a closed minded, guilded and protectionary mindset to keep the "good ole boy" "same ole same ole" organization intact and going into the future.
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 11:20 #3

T.N. Trosin wrote:
The question has come to me after reading the boards Does discussing AFA stuff here really help?
Tom,

I believe that it does help. The untrue comments are not going to stop just because we want it to. Those that chose to disseminate this kind of garbage without also discussing good and true are going to keep doing so. Our only opportunity to correct untrue comments is to share the truth and to do so as openly and honestly as possible.

The strength of our association’s character goes with out willingness to be open and honest. As long as an issue is true, regardless of how good, bad, or ugly it might be, if we deal with it in an honest, open and ethical manner the AFA’s strength of character will carry it through the rough patches. What will kill us faster than greased lightening is the perception that the leadership of the AFA is unable or unwilling to face its issues, make difficult decisions that may not be popular but that are necessary, or speak the truth unflinchingly no matter how difficult or embarrassing.

We are loosing respect because we have created our own PR problems with our head in the sand behaviors. As a group sticking our head in the sand has done nothing but leave our rear end exposed to whatever our enemy has chosen to do with it. We have been reamed repeatedly and haven’t taken one step to decisively defend ourselves or our reputation. Well I am of the belief if someone is trying to stick a knife in me I want to be looking him in the eye while he is trying to do it, because I’m going to be doing my level best to take the knife away from him and use it on him instead.

If our association is going to succeed we need to develop the strength of character and will to be secure in our decision making process. We need to be positive that our decisions are good for the association and based upon sound and well researched information. We have to demand that our leadership have the character necessary to stand up and face every challenge in a mature but decisive fashion. Our decision making process must be transparent to everyone, inside and outside of the AFA. If we eliminate the shadows, no one can create conspiracies were they do not exist. If we do something unsupportable and get called on it, we deserve it.

We can not run from our problems and ever have a hope of earning the trust and faith of farriers across the board. We have to remember that our membership must have confidence in us and we have to earn that faith and confidence with every step we take. Conflict avoidance is the thing that is hurting us so badly, not conflict. In conflict there is an exchange of ideas and the ability to learn. Regardless of how hard you get hit, if you examine how you got hit closely you will learn how to avoid getting hit again in the future.

I haven’t been around as long as you have, but I hold the AFA dearly as well. It seriously upsets me when people lie about us or our members. I want to see us develop the tools we need to actually stand up to them and make them eat their words with facts. Approaching this in a cold, heard, uncompromising, business like fashion that is open to examination and defensible from any criticism is the only way to secure the future of the AFA and to truly earn the respect of farriers at large and this is the only way we will survive and grow into the organization that we all believe the AFA has the potential of becoming.

If people have an ax to grind it is our job as leaders is to create a grinding wheel that will take it down to a nub in a heart beat. This is not a club. It is a trade association. The job of a trade association is to serve the betterment and interests of the trade, not make buddies. Our job as leaders is to develop a product/service mix that provides added value to our memberships, not to decide if we like the membership. When they pay their money, they get the product, period. Now all we have to do is develop a superior product that is competitive in the market and that will withstand all challenges.

That is what I am committed to doing, what about you?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 12:41 #4

  • tbloomer
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From the AFA web site:

"In connection with the election, a discussion board has been created at the Members Only section of the AFA web site www.AmericanFarriers.org. Candidates may post their platforms and comments, and members may ask questions of the candidates."

How much action is that forum getting? What if somebody who is not a member, me for example, might decide to become a member based on a change in leadershp or direction?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 13:26 #5

Alot has been mentioned as to people lieing about the AFA. That the only ones posting on this forum about the AFA have an axe to grind. Who are they and what lies have they told? I do not see that as a problem on this forum at all. I see very good questions, perceptions and ideas being discussed and shared here. I also know AFA leadership read this forum. What they are not getting on the AFA's members only forum they can get right here at no cost. Good feedback, ideas and complaints. All these things can help improve things. It is a win win situation for all.

I totaly agree with what Jaye, Ron and Tom has said. The members on this forum are growing and a majority of the members here are great folks.

To answer T.N.'s question, yes I think it helps, it helps alot and the AFA should take full advantage of it.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 14:12 #6

  • Gary_Miller
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tbloomer wrote:
How much action is that forum getting?
Thread was started by Bruce has had 18 replies and 237 views.
Last Post was on 5 october by Ron K.

Eveyone posting with the exception of three are regular posters here.


Gary
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 14:30 #7

  • Rick Burten
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I too believe that discussing the AFA here, helps. TomB., Ron, Phil have all better said the things I was going to say when I first started reading this thread and the replies.

My question is, why should the AFA not be discussed here? We(the AFA) purport to be "the voice of the American Farrier". True or not, if we adopt this conceit, then we had better be ready,willing and able to speak, debate, discuss anthing of concern to anyone, out in the open without even the slightest hint of censorship, managed replies, or obfusication.

I would pose the question to you, TomT., where better than here, and why?

Regardless of where the AFA is discussed, it is necessary that the facts be presented. No one is ever going to be able to stop anyone else from 'speaking up' at a time and place of their choosing. The AFA must put itself in a position to be able to appropriately respond to any and all questions, concerns and discussion. We have already seen that the ED of the AFA, present and past, are aware of discussions here and have responded as they feel appropriate. We have seen AFA members rise to the occasion and to the best of their ability and knowledge, tried to answer the questions, concerns and on occasion, mis-information that has been presented.

How else would you propose that this be handled? Ignore it? Go 'dark' and hope it goes away? Cloak ourselves in righteous indignation and refuse to deal with the problem?(something that some seem to be rather good at IMNTBCHO). Hope that the majority of the membership of the AFA don't hear about what is going on and/or lack the cojones to do something about it?

I beleive that Ron said it best when he said:

"The strength of our association’s character goes with out willingness to be open and honest. As long as an issue is true, regardless of how good, bad, or ugly it might be, if we deal with it in an honest, open and ethical manner the AFA’s strength of character will carry it through the rough patches. What will kill us faster than greased lightening is the perception that the leadership of the AFA is unable or unwilling to face its issues, make difficult decisions that may not be popular but that are necessary, or speak the truth unflinchingly no matter how difficult or embarrassing"

That's my position too, and for me, its set in stone.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 14:31 #8

  • Derin Foor
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T.N. Trosin wrote:

It came to me as I read the candidate questions thread and noticed that questions were being asked by non-members, Derin Floor's question about member retention and the post from the "Shoes enough guy". What bugs me about all of this is that the world is seeing the good, bad, ugly, true, and untrue about an orginization that I have come to hold pretty dear. Further a lot of the stuff that is posted on this site about the AFA is strictly the opinion of people who have an ax to grind or who wouldn't belong to any club that would have someone like them as a member.

Mr Trosin,

Just to clarify for those that want to lump me in with a specific group of AFA bashers:

I AM an AFA member and have been certified for @ 5 years now. if you looked me up under the name "Floor" you won't find me....it's "Foor"

I have no ax to grind, not interested in running for office, and hope the AFA can get its act together so there is an AFA that I can be proud to be a member of.

If airing our dirty laundry is embarrassing, then perhaps we should clean it up. Start at the top and work your way down, like a real business would do..... after all the AFA IS a business, is it not?

Derin Foor, CF
Member # 7018
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 16:32 #9

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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T.N., I ask you again as I did in the thread you moved earlier, why do so many want the AFA to be exclusionary and elitist? Many talk of getting new members and keeping old members and how big a problem this is. Well I've got to say that if no body knows what is happening with the association they are never going to become members or stay members.

Now as far as this forum goes, because of these discussion alone there have been a couple of retentions as well as one or two possible new members brought in. The most notable would be Rick who is now running for President elect because he was told, and I quote, "To suck it up" by another member, Danvers Child, in a discussion right here. With the changes in the election and the new people running like Rick, Ron, and R.T. I have decided to stay a member because there is now a promise of a better future for the AFA that myself and well as others were thinking was dieing a slow death. A few others have hinted at the same thing (staying involved) because of the discussion here. I think a potential new member could be Tony because of his interactions with Rick and Ron and also getting the suck it up statement so he wouldn't be leaving butt prints in the sand.

Many people didn't or wouldn't have even know of the election changes if it wasn't for this forum. Heck, I just got my PF magazine the other day while others have been talking about the content for a couple of weeks. Again, outlying members slow to get info. And the "Breaking News" on the AFA web site just got updated, a couple of weeks after we started here. The AFA is slow when it comes to getting info out, and that hurts it also. That is why the rumors get so big, nobody in the membership has the info to refute the rumors and stop the bs from growing faster than the truth. That's why we need to be a transparent organization as Ron K. puts it. No hiding, no slinking around behind closed doors, let the whole ****** horse world know that we are the best farrier organization in the world and we can prove it. That's going to take some work and alot more members to come in and get on board the train. None of that will happen if they don't have the info they need to know what is really happening, and we keep up an exclusionary attitude.

I feel this forum is needed and is very important at this time because the AFA site isn't doing the job right now. JMO.

Ben D. Sturman
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 17:36 #10

  • T.N. Trosin
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Derin Foor wrote:
Mr Trosin,

Just to clarify for those that want to lump me in with a specific group of AFA bashers:

Derin Foor, CF
Member # 7018

It wasn't to lump you in with the bashers it was to the question that your posed to Rick.
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 18:28 #11

  • Jaye Perry
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T.N. Trosin wrote:
It wasn't to lump you in with the bashers it was to the question that your posed to Rick.
What's the matter Trosin, where is the Defense of "your dear AFA"?:rolleyes:
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 19:08 #12

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Jaye Perry wrote:
What's the matter Trosin, where is the Defense of "your dear AFA"?:rolleyes:
Ok Jaye I asked nice once. I don't like to think that people are rude for the sake of being rude, so I'll ask nice again. Call me Tom, T, but don't just call me Trosin. Obviously not that it matters to you, I have a lot of respect for you for your knowledge and ability, but its waining.

I'm not here to defend the AFA. The question was does discussing AFA problems in a forum that is open to public view gonna help or further hurt an association that I belong to? My point to Darin was the it was mearly, in part his question that made me ask mine, not to lump him in with the bashers.

As far as my response to this so far, the day ain't over yet.
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 19:29 #13

  • Jaye Perry
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T.N. Trosin-Ok Jaye I asked nice once. I don't like to think that people are rude for the sake of being rude, so I'll ask nice again. Call me Tom, T, but don't just call me Trosin. Obviously not that it matters to you, I have a lot of respect for you for your knowledge and ability, but its waining.
I'll call you 'tt".


I'm not here to defend the AFA.
Your the the one that said, "dear AFA". Liking to a relative or wife.
Per the definition- ah hell, your literate enough to look it up.
The question was does discussing AFA problems in a forum that is open to public view gonna help or further hurt an association that I belong to?
How will it ever change????

My point to Darin was the it was mearly, in part his question that made me ask mine, not to lump him in with the bashers.
If one was to be a "real" BOD or EC member they would question and then look for answers or solutions rather than whining about pertinate and obvious problems of an organization that is in limbo!
As far as my response to this so far, the day ain't over yet.
Guess you have to call or e-mail the others and get a quorum for solutions to to blunt obvious and pertinate questions. Like I stated in another thread: "reliance on others is a crutch".:rolleyes:
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 19:30 #14

  • Rick Burten
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T.N. Trosin wrote:
I'm not here to defend the AFA.
Tom,
It seems to me that right now, the issues are revolving around Ron and my candidacies, not the AFA per se. Well, OK, of course it involves the AFA, but not so much in a 'defense' mode as in the context of what Ron and/or I see for the AFA, what we would like to encourage to continue, feel should be ended, and how/why we want to go about dealing with the issues and concerns of the membership and anyone else who has an interest.
The question was does discussing AFA problems in a forum that is open to public view gonna help or further hurt an association that I belong to?
My question(s) to you is/are, why should it hurt. what have we to fear from open, honest, frank discussion, and why not here?

As a board member, what are you doing to help resolve the issues that confront the AFA? How can you do this effectively when the board only meets twice a year and those meetings often end up like "Heartbreak Ridge"?

Demonstrably, these forums are read by significantly more people than the ones on the AFA Website. Here is where the action is, here is where the lion should be bearded.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Does it help? 08 Oct 2006 19:53 #15

  • Jaye Perry
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Rick Burten-Tom,
It seems to me that right now, the issues are revolving around Ron and my candidacies, not the AFA per se.
If I vote for you , you will be the AFA.



Well, OK, of course it involves the AFA, but not so much in a 'defense' mode as in the context of what Ron and/or I see for the AFA, what we would like to encourage to continue, feel should be ended, and how/why we want to go about dealing with the issues and concerns of the membership and anyone else who has an interest

I have a big interest... Throughout the past year they have been many that have called, e-mailed and ridden in my truck asking when the AFA is going to move towards an Educational format instead of "Good Ole Boy, hammer it" format.
Re-upping, due to a light upon the horizon, gives me a little hope for the kids that are hungry and looking for more than what a hammer can do for them.
My question(s) to you is/are, why should it hurt. what have we to fear from open, honest, frank discussion, and why not here?
Your late Mr. B on that query, should have been answered before now!
As a board member, what are you doing to help resolve the issues that confront the AFA? How can you do this effectively when the board only meets twice a year and those meetings often end up like "Heartbreak Ridge"?
It's too "dear to 'tt's' heart to be honest with himself.

Demonstrably, these forums are read by significantly more people than the ones on the AFA Website. Here is where the action is, here is where the lion should be bearded.
The AFA is and will remain behind the times unless more people question or query the "Good Ole Boys Network".
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