make up natural cara make up make up tutorial make up korea make up minimalis make up artis make up mata belajar make up make up wardah alat make up makeup forever indonesia makeup artist jakarta tips make up barbie make up natural make up make up wajah make up pesta make up syahrini makeup mata makeup minimalis peralatan make up make up cantik make up mac make up kit jual make up make up sederhana perlengkapan make up gambar make up vidio make up cara makeup minimalis wardah make up make up pac make up glamour cara memakai makeup make up panggung harga make up make up modern make up alami make up dasar pixy make up make up muslimah make up oriflame make up jepang makeover cosmetic make up ultima make up sariayu grosir make up makeup fantasi makeup pesta tas makeup langkah make up make up pria make up malam alat makeup tahapan make up produk make up shading make up mak up make up kebaya make up jilbab make up inez make up simpel contoh make up cara ber makeup makeup wajah tanpa make up make up terbaru toko make up mac makeup indonesia make up soft urutan make up trik make up makeover makeup brand gusnaldi make up paket make up panduan make up jual makeup brush make up bagus alat2 make up make up gusnaldi aplikasi make up alat alat makeup dasar make up inez make up peralatan makeup make up wanita make up berjilbab make up tebal sejarah make up make up maybeline make up branded make up siang tata cara makeup reseller make up make up muslim make up maybelin warna make up tips make up artist rias make up make up mata make up artis belajar make up make up artist kursus make up kuas make up make up forever indonesia jual make up mac indonesia make up make up artist indonesia harga make up forever jual make up online make up pac make up forever jakarta make up oriflame jual make up forever make up online shop indonesia harga make up sekolah make up grosir make up harga make up maybelline jual make up murah make up terbaru mak up mac make up indonesia sofia make up make up kit murah mac makeup indonesia produk make up jual make up kit make up store indonesia make up forever academy jakarta toko make up online jual make up set jual make up mac make up beauty jual make up branded produk make up mac make up forever harga make up mac indonesia produk make up artis jual make up palette produk make up forever make up palette murah before after make up pengantin before after make up sendiri before n after hasil makeup contoh make up karakter contoh riasan pengantin before n after harga make up wisuda harga make up artist harga make up forever make up wisuda rias wisuda di jogja Daftar harga make up forever daftar harga make up mac daftar harga kosmetik make up forever makeup wisuda harga makeup wisuda kursus make up di yogyakarta kursus make up di jogja kursus make up jogja kursus make up yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di jogja kursus make up artist di jogja kursus rias pengantin di jogja kursus rias di yogyakarta kursus tata rias di yogyakarta rias pengantin muslim jogja jasa kreasi jilbab wisuda yogyakarta jasa rias make up wisuda murah bagus bisa dpanggil tempat make uf di jigja yang bagus rias wisuda murah dan berkualitas yogyakarta pakar kreasi jilbab di jogja make uper natural yogya make up wisuda hijab area jogja make up dan kreasi jilbab yang bagus di jogja jasa make up natural untuk wisuda jogja makeup jogja make up jogja makeup yogyakarta make up yogyakarta makeup wisuda jogja make up wisuda jogja make up wisuda yogyakarta makeup wisuda yogyakarta
Sunday December 5, 2021
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters?

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 04 Apr 2012 16:51 #31

  • beslagsmed
  • beslagsmed's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1798
  • Thank you received: 5
  • Karma: 0
I read the same article. I am also wondering how this will effect the rest of Europe. I believe over here countries having certified farrier education programs will have a better chance of getting this thing passed. I know Denmark has been trying for years to get some type of law like in England, but the problem has always been enough certified farriers to take care of all the horses.
Paddy wrote:
Interesting article in the new publication of "Farrier's Journal no.154". A press release from the french farrier's union (UFM) - The End of the 'Natural" trimmers Phenomenon.

Talks about the pseudo-natural trimmers. The origin of barefoot trimming, its enaction with within the french farriery trade, the new AUS brumby research bringing clarity to environmental issues, legal cases pending due to laming of horses due to individuals exacting specific named barefoot trims, the dropping of prices causing economic issues for mainstream farriers. The issues within a highly skilled trade getting a knocking from unqualified individuals that are poorly trained compared to the mainstream farriery business.

Basically now the french lawmakers have ammended their rural code, so that aside from vets only farriers qualified to level 5 diploma can trim equids feet.

Well, the french are a very protectionist lot indeed!, and they have done something about it. The french veterinarians backed them.

I wonder how this example will follow itself around the Eurozone?.

Regards,
P J Falvey CF
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 05 Apr 2012 15:02 #32

  • Mark_Gough
  • Mark_Gough's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 2184
  • Thank you received: 35
  • Karma: 7
Mitch Taylor of Kentucky Horseshoeing School touched on this topic for a Farriers Journal video.




I was talking with a farrier who had his own thoughts on the subject. He offered a candid position on licensing we don't often hear spoken out loud in polite company.

To paraphrase, he said, "I hate to say it, but the trade needs some sort of licensing to protect income levels. This is my full time job and I know what it costs to run this business. I can't do that as effectively when I have to compete against the propaganda of the barefooters and the cut-throat pricing of some "backyard hack" just shoeing for beer money.".

He makes a good point. The full-time, professional farrier will have significant investment and costs in education, equipment, inventory, insurance and income tax liability. His fees must represent those investments, costs and some expectation of profit. The lay practitioner, having little of those same business costs, can seriously undermine the professionals credibility and net business income.

It's fair and reasonable to ask the professional farrier, what business have you lost to the guy that is willing to trim and shoe a horse all around for $60 bucks? How many customers have horses that desperately need shoes but are kept barefoot (e.g. cheaper) and serviced by a "natural barefoot trimmer" because of "barefoot propaganda"? How many times has your customer called the vet out only to learn that the animals need would be better met by the farrier?

I often hear it argued that "a free market will sort it out" or "you don't want those customers anyway". I disagree.

The market will seek out the best value (cheapest price/quality) but when the market consumer has no quality reference, price becomes king until the horse is lame. Sure, there are some of those customers whom you may not want anyway, but what impact on your own fee schedule do the "price cutters" have? Do they suppress the overall market by creating an artificial bottom by which your fee schedule may be measured?

In the video clip, Mitch makes an important point when he says, "I'd like to see horseshoers own our trade more." I agree.

I often hear horse owners refer to their barefoot trimmer as a "farrier". They don't use the term "trimmer". From their perspective, the trimmer is a "farrier". The rest of us are just "blacksmiths" or "horseshoers", stuck in an out-of-date dogma and illiterate in the latest technologies that best meet the needs of the horse. The owner's proof? Just about any barefoot website.

Google results for "Natural trimming for horses": 13,000,000.

Google results for "horseshoeing": 632,000.

Cheers,
Mark
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 05 Apr 2012 15:46 #33

  • beslagsmed
  • beslagsmed's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1798
  • Thank you received: 5
  • Karma: 0
Mark,
I got to agree with you some. One thing I don't agree with is regulation won't stop the cutting of prices. There will always be those who will work cheaper to start a business or get something to do. A while back I picked up a customer who used anothe farrier because he was "cheaper". Only when she had problems and I solved the problem did she change. And the guy is suppose to be an educated farrier. Education or not what it boils down to is does the farrier have the inner drive and desire to treat every horse as it should be? I have to agree we (farriers) have given the Barefooters a lot of ammo to shoot ourselves. Maybe the answer is slow down a bit, don't book your schedule so full you can't give the attention needed to every horse. I know it's a tough road, but if we don't tend to business - who will?
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 06 Apr 2012 12:23 #34

  • ray steele
  • ray steele's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1042
  • Thank you received: 4
  • Karma: 1
Mark,

I'd like definitions/interpretations of Mitch Taylors quote that you said that you like" I'd like to see horseshoers own our trade more",

Regards

Ray Steele
Last Edit: 06 Apr 2012 12:48 by ray steele.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 06 Apr 2012 15:10 #35

  • mwmyersdvm
  • mwmyersdvm's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 924
  • Thank you received: 11
  • Karma: 1
In the veterinary profession, the effect of licensing is not to directly improve quality of the service. In other words, acquiring the license does not automatically make the person aware he has to conform to a standard. The licensing process gives him the opportunity to be aware of the regulations which will govern his business and professional practices. Since it cannot be assumed that everyone made aware of the regulations will adhere to them, it has generated an inspection and regulation body that will handle consumer complaints and reprimand those veterinarians not conforming to the profession's stated standards. Veterinarians also undergo practice inspections every three years to check on their adherence to these regulations. Until the farrier profession can promulgate specific standards to which all must adhere there will be no purpose for licensure. Medical professions do "self regulate" to an extent, but they have formed a body that does enforce the regulations they have agreed upon. This would cost money for the profession to create and a great deal of time would need to be given to constructing the regulations that would be fair and enforceable.
The first step is waiting to be addressed, creating the standard of care a farrier is to perform. This is not only how good he is at the fire or how well the shoe stays on. This will include how well he keeps records, follows up cases, communicates with clients, adheres to ethical handling of client and professional relationships, just to name a few areas that are usually not covered in these discussions. This will be a long and difficult journey, but will likely have to be started at some time in the near future.

M. W. Myers, DVM
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 06 Apr 2012 16:26 #36

  • Mark_Gough
  • Mark_Gough's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 2184
  • Thank you received: 35
  • Karma: 7
ray steele wrote:
Mark,

I'd like definitions/interpretations of Mitch Taylors quote that you said that you like" I'd like to see horseshoers own our trade more",

I would appreciate hearing Mitch elaborate on the topic as well.
beslagsmed wrote:
One thing I don't agree with is regulation won't stop the cutting of prices.

I'm not sure what effect, if any, regulation would have on the trade. I'm confident regulation/licensing will not happen in my lifetime.
There will always be those who will work cheaper to start a business or get something to do.

Agree. Farriers do not "own" their trade. ;)
A while back I picked up a customer who used anothe farrier because he was "cheaper". Only when she had problems and I solved the problem did she change.

I've had that happen too. I've also lost customers to "farriers" who were cheaper. Skill/education/experience/quality was irrelevant.
And the guy is suppose to be an educated farrier.

What is an "educated farrier"?

There is no educational requirement to practice farriery in the United States. As a "trade", it would be hypocritical to chastise a practitioner for failing to achieve what the trade willfully chooses to neither define or require.
Education or not what it boils down to is does the farrier have the inner drive and desire to treat every horse as it should be?

As a trade, we cannot agree on even the simplest methodology to "treat every horse as it should be". We don't "own our trade".
I have to agree we (farriers) have given the Barefooters a lot of ammo to shoot ourselves.

Yep. More to the point, the "trade" hasn't collectively, successfully done anything about it. From the horse owners perspective, "barefooters' are part of your trade. So are veterinarians. So is the guy who has no formal training and charges half your fee.
Maybe the answer is slow down a bit, don't book your schedule so full you can't give the attention needed to every horse. I know it's a tough road, but if we don't tend to business - who will?

How the individual tends their business may assure individual success. A paradigm shift in the "trade" would require a more collective effort. I really don't see that happening anytime soon.

Cheers,
Mark
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 07 Apr 2012 13:32 #37

  • beslagsmed
  • beslagsmed's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1798
  • Thank you received: 5
  • Karma: 0
Mark_Gough wrote:
ray steele wrote:
And the guy is suppose to be an educated farrier.

What is an "educated farrier"?

There is no educational requirement to practice farriery in the United States. As a "trade", it would be hypocritical to chastise a practitioner for failing to achieve what the trade willfully chooses to neither define or require.

Cheers,
Mark

Mark,
Here in Denmark we have a farrier education program approved by the Ministry of Education resulting in Certification. This guy is "Certified"
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 11 Apr 2012 07:40 #38

  • Travis Morgan
  • Travis Morgan's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 521
  • Thank you received: 6
  • Karma: 1
mwmyersdvm wrote:
....This is not only how good he is at the fire or how well the shoe stays on. This will include how well he keeps records, follows up cases, communicates with clients, adheres to ethical handling of client and professional relationships, ....
M. W. Myers, DVM

Being able to get clients to actually learn anything or look at their horses' feet closely is damn near impossible now. Passing laws is just gonna cost us time and money, trying to track down customers who could care less. If I wanted to do paperwork, I'd do something else.
Copenhagen. You can see it in my smile!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 11 Apr 2012 13:00 #39

  • Travis Reed
  • Travis Reed's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1542
  • Thank you received: 2
  • Karma: 4
Personally I feel its very important for farriers to keep records on ur horses..its just good business..one should never need a law to do what is right..it takes about 20 to 45min each night to do billing ..make notes in the file..and add up ur daily expenses..most clients are teachable to a point and of course some are not..if u been Shoeing a horse for a couple of years and you have noted heat..swelling or other things like owner telling ya he was off here and there and one day the horse pulls up lame and vets get involved..two years of precise notes can go a long ways in my opinion..it not just good business you kinda owe it to ur clientele to be a professional.. if..(all)..farriers would run they business like a true business and not like a hobby or a thing for extra beer money I feel the ones that don't would see they client base change for the better..but hey what the hell do I know.
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: MPLdyCop

is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 29 Jan 2016 20:59 #40

  • mmcleodk
  • mmcleodk's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: 0
I've found out here that the population in general will go barefoot when the horse isn't being used/the wall isn't being worn down too quickly, and will shoe whenever this is not the case.

That being said we have cold winters and the risks of wearing shoes on ice, and the risk of the damage to other horses from borium inserts, isn't worth it.

That being said most out here are fairly practical, if the horse will benefit from shoes they shoe the horse.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 17 Mar 2016 22:23 #41

  • the_unicorn
  • the_unicorn's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 0
Dr. Myers is right that the regulation of the industry will not stop price lowering. In my areas young farriers who are qualified are out there shoeing at half the price a man who has a house and family can afford. He can do this because there is no care and all speed.

The biggest thing a farrier can learn from barefootin is that the trim is more important than the shoe. A local farrier has been shoeing show jumpers and they are not lame but performance is not good. I put the same mans shoes back on one horse with a better trim and the horse is going fantastic.

The problem with the hoof care industry is there is no science behind the shoeing of a horse. This means you can only learn what someone before you thinks is right.

This means there can be no meaningful regulation until the industry can define the standard.

Dr. Myers mentioned a quality of a good farrier is too keep shoes on, this is wrong I see more damage done by try to force a shoe to stay on compared to trimming the horse correctly to reduce the chances of a shoe coming off.

I hate coming to horses where the client says oh my farrier can keep the shoes on 8 weeks. This is really bad for the horse both in body issues and bad for the hoof capsule.

Pete Ramey and Mr. Yark have come from the non scientific side of horseshoeing and have run with very limited research of just the hoof and not the rest of the horse.

The two main problem researchers are Michael Savaldi and Bob Bowker, both have taken the hoof care world down the wrong path.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 04 Apr 2016 05:10 #42

  • the_unicorn
  • the_unicorn's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 0
Just got to watch Mitch Taylors little video you put in your post.

There are a few things he says that are useful, like the fact that the majority of the trade has not kept up their skills.

He talked about horseshoeing competitions being the best way to improve horse shoeing, this is wrong as the ideas of what is a good shoeing job is too much about looks not about the real hoof under that shoe.

Mitch runs a school down in Kentucky but the work done there appears to be the same old farrier work at most schools and competitions. There should be more inovation and learning.

I think Mitch needs to get out and try some of the new things out there and learn what works and what doesn't
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 16 Apr 2016 16:53 #43

  • chris bunting
  • chris bunting's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1468
  • Thank you received: 9
  • Karma: 5
Mitch has forgotten than you will ever learn
common sense is not needed when you have rules
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: George Geist

Re: is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 23 Apr 2016 14:13 #44

  • the_unicorn
  • the_unicorn's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 115
  • Karma: 0
chris bunting wrote:

Mitch has forgotten than you will ever learn

Is that a bad thing or a good thing.

I was just re-reading Doug Butlers PIII on page 43 I think it was it talks about dressing the flares off a hoof to make it look right. We now know that dressing the flares is one of the key causes of flares.

Page 196 talks about horse behaviour but it is very out of date.

Page 607 gives the growth rate of horse hooves as 0.405mm per day for foals and 0.24mm per day approx for an adult horse. Dr. Hampson work shows a growth rate of 1.5mm per day of new hoof. This is similar to Ivy Ramey's carriage horses.

That book has a lot of things that should be forgotten :-)


I am not saying Mitch is bad at what he does, just that the world is moving fast into new science.
Regards
Darren Robertson, MHG

"Specialising in Barefoot trimming, Equine Muscular work for better Biomechanics, Helping horses move to the true form."
The administrator has disabled public write access.

is there anything useful for a farrier to learn from barefooters? 15 Aug 2016 21:58 #45

  • George Geist
  • George Geist's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3336
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 3
In response to your question-no.
They have nothing worthwhile to contribute to anything being barely able to do the work of a first week apprentice.
Sorry folks, I'm not impressed.

I will grant them one thing they have done that's been a positive is they've gotten owners to tighten up on the scheduling a little bit.
Ideally horses should get hoof care about once a month. We really stretch it to the breaking point at 6 weeks. If we tried to do them on a more timely schedule we'd be run out of town on a rail accused of robbing people.

Trimmers incorporated shorter intervals into their extensive line of bull****** and it worked. That's about the only noteworthy accomplishment of any of them though.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
Last Edit: 15 Aug 2016 21:59 by George Geist.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Kunena Birthday Module

  • farrieress birthday is today
  • mills_horsemanship birthday is today
  • TEETHPULLEROUTER birthday is today
  • ben cydrus birthday is in 1 day
  • Brian Purrington birthday is in 1 day
  • White Hawk Farrier Servic birthday is in 364 days
Time to create page: 0.221 seconds

S5 Box

Register

*
*
*
*
*
*

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.