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TOPIC: Carriage horse ban

RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 14:15 #31

  • DeniseMc
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Denise; I have seen the statistics about Amish buggies getting hit from behind and we had Amish throughout new england states .
My question is was it the buggy that initiated the accident of the speed of the vehicle and inability to slow down when it saw the buggy that caused the accident ?

Thomas is of the opinion that high city traffic and carriages don't belong together in NYC. His Big Brother solution here appears to be to ban the carriages from city streets. What is his next step? Ban the Amish buggies from the rural highways? (LOL--Maybe we should, the Amish don't pay their fair share in highway taxes!) What about accidents that don't involve horses--what about bicycle-car crashes in cities and on rural highways? Ban the bicycle? What about motorcycles-car crashes cause we don't see motorcycles as well? Ban the motorcycle? Solutions from some do-gooder nanny who does not live in this great country who flew over the USA and probably stayed at a Holiday Inn don't work for me.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 14:56 #32

  • cuttinshoer
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Yes I'm sure and clearly you didn't appreciate when I said that it was in direct reply to your assertion (that I also quoted and which I'd have thought might have been a clue).

I don't beleive you are, you have been spouting off in several threads about the way we americans do things and we need to be regulated and that will save all. When the fact is we already have the regulations, most people don't even know they are in place.

From a previous post by you.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
IMO there needs to be regulation to protect the horses and drivers from mad selfish motorists and from overwork and abuse and misuse.

I beleive that was covered in the link I provided. They are only allowed to operate on certain streets within town. Were only allowed to work a certain number of hours per day.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
I find it "interesting" that folks want regulation and banning for carriage horses in New York when there's absolutely zilch elsewhere to protect horses in the USA.

Perhaps you should go back and look thru the USDA horse protection act and the animal welfare act as well. If you go to the last link which is the federal registry of regulations you search and look at any regulation on file.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
IMO there ought to be effective regulation and enforced standards of welfare and for all horses. Whether or not they're being used commercially and for ridden and driven activity.

But I know that just isn't politically or socially acceptable there and it's very different here.

Once again you should take a look at the USDA website.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
In the UK commercial horse drawn vehicles are licenced and very strictly regulated. But then we are altogether more regulated. All Equestrian Centres are regulated and licenced as are all Riding Instructors and Horse Trainers. Each and every horse being used commercially is examined at the very least annually. Likewise for where they're kept. Every single equid in the UK has to have it's own passport. Farriery is licenced and regulated etc etc. So for us regulation and licencing is pretty much standard place.

According to the regulations I posted carriage horses are regulated and must be inspected annually by a veterinarian. Although our horses don't have passports. You are required if crossing state lines to have a current health certificate and a negative coggins test. Also in some states out west if the livestock is branded you must have a brand certifcate for the animal. In kansas City MS. there is a port of entry, as well as other places throughout the U.S. in which any livestock being transported thru must stop and be inspected.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
That's how a lot of companies operate all over Europe. The horses are trucked into the city for a week or two then back to pasture land and turn out for a couple of days. With strict rules about their health and how many hours they can work and where. What sort of harness is used and what kind of vehicle and whether according to it's size and weight once loaded, it's drawn by a single horse or a pair of horses. What the driver's competence is and checking it. Time to stop the incompetent and abusive from compromising the whole business.

Thats is how my customer operates as well. Her horses are kept a few miles out of town and are trailered in and out daily. I beleive all the rules you listed were covered under the link that I posted.


Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
You don't have compulsory identity of horses and so there's no record of how many there are. Hence you aren't able to define the size of the total population group and in turn to produce an incidence rate.

That means you can't do a comparison.

Once again you are spouting about something that you have no clue. Every so often the county assesor comes to my house and takes a look around counting the number of livestock on my property, the amount of equipment I own, buildings and there uses etc. so that our government can collect taxes on them. Sure there are probably some animals that slip thru and don't get counted across the U.S., which probably happens in your country as well. The USDA would have these figures.



Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
But don't let that stop you from asserting that no-one else is even allowed an opinion!

So far your opinions about this country IMO are misconstrued, you make it sound as though we just run around over here with no laws or regulations and just do as we please at the sake of abuseing our animals. It's people like you that give the animal rights movement fuel for the fire.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
If you read carefully you'd see that I mentioned being in New York; in fact the last time was just a brief stay and prior to getting a flight to San Francisco and then a change to Los Angeles with a further change there to go to Medford, Oregon and then a 2 hour drive to get to my friends ranch 20 miles from Broadbent.

Hot Damn you hopped a couple of flights and spent some time in one state, a 2hr drive in Oregon won't get you very far. Must not be a very big ranch I have been to a couple it would take an hour just to get down the driveway. So that makes you an expert on our laws and regulations and the way we transport and handle our horses and livestock in this country.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
But don't let your prejudicial jingoistic stereotypes stop you from deciding what I know about geography and travel !

So are you calling me a racist or what. My opinion of your knowledge about this country is based on my personal experience of living her for thirty years. Growing up on a family farm raising livestock, and now raising 60 head of cattle of my own as well as owning 16 horses. I have driven numerous miles across this country hauling livestock for sale or to rodeos. I have customers who operate businesses in this country under the regulations that we have. The only thing that I see from your opinions is they are based on the small percentage of the bad people in this country who are uneducated or just plain negligent.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Perhaps you should look again.... where did I say you had "no governmental regulation"

See above, well I geuss you didn't come out and say it, but you did a lot of insinuating that we needed it when in fact it is already in place.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
So I'm guessing from your contributions here that you think that nothing should change at all and folks should just mind their own business because it's all working marvelously as it is.

Sounds like a plan..... NOT!!!

No, I beleive I stated that maybe we need to enforce the regulations we have and not make more that will not be enforced. I know it is working a little better than what it is portrayed by the animal rights associations and you.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 15:37 #33

  • cuttinshoer
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Heres a few links for regulations in New York, although some may be biased since they are from the people who are trying to ban them.

http://www.comptroller.nyc.gov/bureaus/audit/PDF_FILES/MH07_092A.pdf

http://www.banhdc.org/archives/ch-existleg-nyc17-3.html

http://www.banhdc.org/ch-existleg.shtml

http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cruelty/animal-precinct/nyc-carriage-horse-industry.aspx

I find it sad that the agency that is in charge of enforcing the laws is also the one who is trying to put them out of business.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 16:11 #34

  • vthorseshoe
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You are a very good debator... You have done your research and present your case extremely well with documentation to back up your words.cuttinshoer
(Re: Carriage horse ban
Heres a few links for regulations in New York, although some may be biased since they are from the people who are trying to ban them.

http://www.comptroller.nyc.gov/burea.../MH07_092A.pdf

http://www.banhdc.org/archives/ch-existleg-nyc17-3.html

http://www.banhdc.org/ch-existleg.shtml

http://www.aspca.org/fight-animal-cr...-industry.aspx

I find it sad that the agency that is in charge of enforcing the laws is also the one who is trying to put them out of business.)


Perhaps the problem exisits somewhere else. (I am serious, not trying to be funny or anything else)

Any thoughts on that ?

How do we come up with a solution ?

I also,as previously stated, shod for a carriage company around Saratoga, New york and they took exceptional care of their animals and equipment

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
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quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 16:26 #35

  • brian robertson
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all it takes is a few bad apples and the "do gooders" go crazy.

I drive my horses down the road a couple of times a week; the majority of car drivers use some common sense but there is always one or two that have a death wish.

I like to remind the car drivers that everybody slows down when they see a deer in the road because the deer are unpredictable; well horses are just as unpredictable and they weigh 5 to 10 times as much. All motorists know exactly how much damage a 140lb deer will do to their car; they need to think about the damage a pair of 1500lb horses will do... and my wife and dependants will own everything the motorist has...
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 17:06 #36

  • cuttinshoer
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vthorseshoe wrote:
Perhaps the problem exisits somewhere else. (I am serious, not trying to be funny or anything else)

Any thoughts on that ?

I agree, the problem lies in a lack of enforcement of current laws IMO. Wether it be on the carriage side or the motor vehicle side.

I live close to a college town which makes for a lot of bicycle traffic. Bicycles are suppose to obey the same traffic laws as motorists, but when one of them runs a red light and gets hit by a car. Geuss who gets blamed and held at fault, the motorist.

vthorseshoe wrote:
How do we come up with a solution ?

I think anyone in the livestock industry is in for a big challenge and not sure there is an answer to that question. This country has moved from a rural setting to an urban setting with the majority not growing up on farms or around animals. Then they come up with all these ideas on how animals should be handled when they don't have the first clue about taking care of themselves.

Just like they tried to ban(and were successful in a few states) the use of farrowing houses in hog operations because the sow was confined and she should be outside to have her pigs. There is a higher percentage of fatalities in baby pigs when they are housed out in the open, than when being in a farrowing house. The whole reason for the crate is for safety of the baby pigs.

vthorseshoe wrote:
I also,as previously stated, shod for a carriage company around Saratoga, New york and they took exceptional care of their animals and equipment

my 2 cents worth ;)

I would say there are countless testimonials across the U.S. who would tell you the same thing. I never could understand how the animal rights people could push the agenda that farmers do not take care of there animals, abuse them don't feed and water them etc. If they were to do that they would be taking food off the table.

There are to many people in this country who have no practical experience around animals. They see a video on you tube of someone wacking an animal with a stick, perhaps they should stand in front of that animal with a stick and see how they come out, because sometimes it's a life or death situation for the person. I remember when we had to worm about 50 head of Broncs, you had to hold your hand out on about a 1/3 of them and let them try to bite you, just so you could take care of them properly. Or trimming a bulls feet because he was to sore to walk, I can tell you sedation doesn't always work and ropes don't always hold, when they get up you can bet they are looking to kill something. What I'm trying to get at here is most of us will put our own lives in danger to properly take care of any animal. When I see something like this carriage ban I take it as an attack on all livestock and animals because that is where it is eventually going to lead.

One of these days a hamburger at Mcdonalds is gonna cost $20 because of all the hoops we are going to have to jump thru to get it to you, because of a fews ignorance.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 17:23 #37

  • Rick Burten
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From the ASPCA web site:
Facts about New York City's Carriage Horse Industry

There are now approximately 204 carriage horses in the city and approximately 300 licensed operators.
These horses are permitted to work nine hours a day, seven days a week.
Dontcha' wish farriers were only allowed to work those days and hours?
Has anyone done a study of how often a horse works(and by works, I don't mean standing around in harness, rather actually pulling a load) during any given week? And, how many weeks/year that actually occurs....
There are no pastures for grazing, no opportunities to roll in the dirt, lie in the sun, run or socialize with an equine companion.
Absent facts to the contrary, this is merely an assumption meant to tug at the human heartstrings.
It is illegal for a driver to operate a carriage when the temperature is 90 degrees F or above, or 18 degrees F or below. No adjustment is made to account for wind chill or the humidity index.
Seems to me that that is an easy fix. Add this sentence to the law/regulation: "The Wind Chill factor and the Temperature Humidity Index shall be considered as part of the working temperature parameters."
After three carriage horses died during a heat wave in the summer of 1988, New York City Councilmembers approved a law that greatly restricted when and where these horses were worked.
Anyone know how many people in NYC died during the same heat wave? Bet it was way more than three........
But in 1994, the law was weakened by lengthening the hours that the horses are allowed to work and enlarging the areas in which the horses are permitted to travel including more of traffic-congested midtown Manhattan.
Those horses work mostly in the Central Park area and that area is not noted for its big hills, lack of trees or high speed automobile movement.
As long as carriage horses continue to operate, the ASPCA will continue to enforce the law to its full extent.
Well there ya' go. These few horses are well protected by people who can ticket an infraction, but get to carry guns, drive police-type vehicles(lights, sirens, etc) and wear a badge. Sure sounds like those horses are (or can/should be) better protected than the average human in NYC.

I suggest that those on the "anti/against" side of this discussion, read this link provided by Justin. http://www.banhdc.org/archives/ch-existleg-nyc17-3.html

Here's an excerpt that bears consideration:
Rest periods for carriage horses and riding horses shall be of such duration and at such intervals as the commissioner shall prescribe, but rest periods for carriage horses shall in no event be for less than fifteen minutes after each two hour working period, and the time of such rest period shall be included in calculating the number of hours the horse has worked in any twenty-four hour period. During such rest periods, the person in charge of such carriage horses shall make fresh water available to the horse.

Also pay attention to how, under those regulations, the temperature is determined.

The regulations for the horse's welfare are there. If the ASPCA, et al is not enforcing them then the blame lies with them.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 17:51 #38

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I personally liked that there were 221 licensed horses in 2006 but there were only 68 licensed carriages and that was the maximum number of licenses that would be issued. That makes 3.25 horses per carriage. Lets say the carriages operate 325 days a year for easy figuring, since they get 5 weeks rest per year which would be 35 days, and 5 more days for inclement weather. Each horse only has to work a 100 days of the year. 8hrs work a day since the breaks afforded them throughout the day make up the 9th hr. They work 800 hrs. a year out of a possible 2,925 working hrs if one horse was to pull an individual carriage himself.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 17:54 #39

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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DeniseMc wrote:
Thomas is of the opinion that high city traffic and carriages don't belong together in NYC. His Big Brother solution here appears to be to ban the carriages from city streets. What is his next step? Ban the Amish buggies from the rural highways? (LOL--Maybe we should, the Amish don't pay their fair share in highway taxes!) What about accidents that don't involve horses--what about bicycle-car crashes in cities and on rural highways? Ban the bicycle? What about motorcycles-car crashes cause we don't see motorcycles as well? Ban the motorcycle? Solutions from some do-gooder nanny who does not live in this great country who flew over the USA and probably stayed at a Holiday Inn don't work for me.
Says the jingoist racist who can't read for comprehension and context!

I'd like to lead a lobbying group and get the New York legislation changed:

BAN CARS - I SAY

They're polluting, noisy, fume producing and dangerous. They kill people frequently. Some of them are dirty and mechanically unsound and shouldn't be on the road. They consume the earth's resources and are environmentally unfriendly. They're often driven by pillocks.

BAN CARS AND FORCE THE WHOLE OF NEW YORK BACK TO THE HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE

p.s. Of course all the old cars could be humanely destroyed and the younger ones put out to grass to rust and end their days. No cars would suffer as a result of my radical new legislation.



I well know that carriage horses and nut cases in fast cars with no respect for anything else on the road don't mix! Every single person who's ever taken a horse on the road knows that!

I appreciate that SOME people on here think that if you're not in New York that you're not allowed to have an opinion on the INTERWEBZ but hey ho life's not like that! In my opinion it's totally illogical and a total waste of a politicians time to be fannying about with something as trite as that when there's a global economic crisis!

I'm thinking that the way this thread has dissolved is just evidence of why politics and farriers don't mix! They should be kept in quarantine from each other and Cuttinshoer can be king of that lobby group!
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 19:45 #40

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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Says the jingoist racist who can't read
I believe this makes the second time you have call someone a racist. Aren't you allowed to post here under special consideration anyways.

By the way I am very patriotic and know what your fancy British word means.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
I appreciate that SOME people on here think that if you're not in New York that you're not allowed to have an opinion on the INTERWEBZ but hey ho life's not like that! In my opinion it's totally illogical and a total waste of a politicians time to be fannying about with something as trite as that when there's a global economic crisis!

The only problem I see with you opinion is that it is inaccurate. Did you know that the carriage regulations in New York were actully based on your system in
the UK.

This is getting hysterical, do you realize that the economic impact of just the
hoof care alone on the animals in question is just shy of a half-million dollars per year. Based on 6 week schedule, and $250 a head, which I would geuss is probably a little cheap for New York.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
I'm thinking that the way this thread has dissolved is just evidence of why politics and farriers don't mix! They should be kept in quarantine from each other and Cuttinshoer can be king of that lobby group!

That sounds like a good idea. Considering I take any attack such as the one on the carriage horses, to be an attack on my livelihood. Because they are just a starting point to further actions.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 20:58 #41

  • DeniseMc
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I'd like to lead a lobbying group and get the New York legislation changed:

BAN CARS - I SAY

They're polluting, noisy, fume producing and dangerous. They kill people frequently. Some of them are dirty and mechanically unsound and shouldn't be on the road. They consume the earth's resources and are environmentally unfriendly. They're often driven by pillocks.

BAN CARS AND FORCE THE WHOLE OF NEW YORK BACK TO THE HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE

p.s. Of course all the old cars could be humanely destroyed and the younger ones put out to grass to rust and end their days. No cars would suffer as a result of my radical new legislation.

Oh, and let us have the taxpayers pay for the ole clunkers; we'll call it Cash for Clunkers. It will clean up the environment and we'll stimulate the economy and fix that global economic crisis. Oops, already been tried; guess we just didn't go far enough; Just typical of those lazy Americans...
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RE:Carriage horse ban 19 Dec 2011 15:06 #42

  • George Geist
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:

I well know that carriage horses and nut cases in fast cars with no respect for anything else on the road don't mix! Every single person who's ever taken a horse on the road knows that!

I appreciate that SOME people on here think that if you're not in New York that you're not allowed to have an opinion on the INTERWEBZ but hey ho life's not like that! In my opinion it's totally illogical and a total waste of a politicians time to be fannying about with something as trite as that when there's a global economic crisis!

I'm thinking that the way this thread has dissolved is just evidence of why politics and farriers don't mix! They should be kept in quarantine from each other and Cuttinshoer can be king of that lobby group!
I'd certainly agree, especially in regards to banning cars. I've always hated them anyway.

On this issue, NYC brings this up pretty much like clockwork every few years. Last time was when a horse stepped on a manhole cover and was electrocuted because of some problem that happened under the street with the power lines.

This usually blows over when they find something better to worry about.
Lord knows I've never supported or agreed with that Mayor about anything but this time around he appears to be the only one speaking with any sanity. Perhaps his daughter being an accomplished equestrienne might help there.:) What the heck even a busted clock is right twice a day:rolleyes:

I'd say is a non-issue this time around.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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